Should Music Be FREE????

[stefancrs]

The current system is kindof unnatural and made up, we put material values to non material stuff.

I work in a major corporation as a database analyst. As such, I produce nothing material. But I receive a salary for my time, effort and creative thought. Yet by your logic, I should not get paid. This idea that electronic media is not material, and thus, has no monetary value is total crap. The "unnatural" quality you're referring to is essentially the idea that work, effort and creative thought are valuless since they produce nothing material.

You draw hasty conclusions from what I wrote. I am both a game industry programmer and a synthmaker developer. I've never claimed or meant that services have no value, because they do, and it is an "natural market value". It is the copies of the result of the work we, and for instance musicians, do that don't have a natural market value. These copies have no real cost involved in their manufacturing, unlike the services we provide when we work, which do.

I've seen several people on KVR claim that no one can own a thought, therefore the idea of "intellectual property" is bogus. That's so patently wrong. If I have a thought and I choose not to express it, write it down, or use it to create something, then that thought is withheld from everyone else in the world--I have control over it.

The fact that you can withheld something from others does not make it a property. For instance, can you exchange intellectual property? Sell it? How? If you'd sell it you yourself would have to lose it. How can you get rid of knowledge or ideas that you already have?

That is the essense of ownership: possession, the ability to choose what to do or not to do with something. I agree that the current business model for music distribution is hopelessly antiquated and flawed, but the facts remains, people want to consume music, they value it. And making music takes skill, time, effort and economic resources. As such, those who create it deserve to be paid for their work.

But you cannot consume music, if you could, the music would be gone when you had consumed it all.

I graduated from college with an art degree. When people at work found that out, they started asking me to do art for work projects. I said, "Fine. How much are you going to pay me?" They looked at me like I was nuts, then told me they weren't going to pay me anything for it. So I told them, "Well, since the art obviously isn't worth anything to you, I see no reason to spend my time doing it." I feel the same way about music. If you aren't willing to pay for music, then I hope you get what you pay for.

Not that it matters if I am willing to pay for it or not. I spend quite a lot of money on music, especially concerts, which can't be copied at no cost. I work in a copyright based industry, but I can't let this effect me so that I cannot see the issues with our current system clearly.

[Stupid American Pig]

for personal enjoyment music should be free(or at the cost of the delivery method), used by a company or person to sell a product or service, music should cost an arm and a leg.

[Spe3D]

You draw hasty conclusions from what I wrote. I am both a game industry programmer and a synthmaker developer. I've never claimed or meant that services have no value, because they do, and it is an "natural market value". It is the copies of the result of the work we, and for instance musicians, do that don't have a natural market value. These copies have no real cost involved in their manufacturing, unlike the services we provide when we work, which do.

Surely the reason you got a job providing the services you offer is so the 'end product' can A) pay for your services B) gernerate a revenue to distribute the end product and create a profit so that Part A) is a viable option for future ventures


Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Spe3D]

The fact that you can withheld something from others does not make it a property.

Yes it does - Knowledge is Power - some really really want it and are willing to pay for 'Knowledge'

For instance, can you exchange intellectual property? Sell it? How? If you'd sell it you yourself would have to lose it. How can you get rid of knowledge or ideas that you already have?

Yes you can

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[TotcProductions]

How can you get rid of knowledge or ideas that you already have?

That's easy....just use wildly inappropriate amounts of alcohol.

[stefancrs]

You draw hasty conclusions from what I wrote. I am both a game industry programmer and a synthmaker developer. I've never claimed or meant that services have no value, because they do, and it is an "natural market value". It is the copies of the result of the work we, and for instance musicians, do that don't have a natural market value. These copies have no real cost involved in their manufacturing, unlike the services we provide when we work, which do.

Surely the reason you got a job providing the services you offer is so the 'end product' can A) pay for your services B) gernerate a revenue to distribute the end product and create a profit so that Part A) is a viable option for future ventures

Indeed, but I am quite convinced that the market still would value game and software development, even if they didn't value the invidual copies that can be made at no cost. Just as one can value music works and artists, eventhough one does not necessarily value the invidual copies that can be made of their works.

The fact that you can withheld something from others does not make it a property.

Yes it does - Knowledge is Power - some really really want it and are willing to pay for 'Knowledge'

It is still not a property. Just because it has a value does not mean it is a property.

For instance, can you exchange intellectual property? Sell it? How? If you'd sell it you yourself would have to lose it. How can you get rid of knowledge or ideas that you already have?

Yes you can

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

No, I really cannot I cannot get rid if "intellectual property" I already have. I can only put unnatural restrictions by contracts upon how I can use it, but I still have the knowledge / ideas / experiences left in my head, even if I'd be legally forced to not use them (which in itself is a huuuuge grey zone since all the "intellectual property" I already have most likely effects what more I gain).

[stefancrs]

How can you get rid of knowledge or ideas that you already have?

That's easy....just use wildly inappropriate amounts of alcohol.

ffs
"I hereby sign a deal where I sell my idea for quantum computing to thee."
"Good, now drink this."

[TotcProductions]

How can you get rid of knowledge or ideas that you already have?

That's easy....just use wildly inappropriate amounts of alcohol.

ffs
"I hereby sign a deal where I sell my idea for quantum computing to thee."
"Good, now drink this."

[shorn44]

"Everything is free" by Gillian Welch pretty much sums it up for me.

[Cryogenic]

Now think again.
Digital copy or not.
You are also stealing the experience, emotion, effort etc., you get out of that copy. You don't have the right to that.

Those are not stealable. If they where, I'd also be able to return them after I had stolen them. They are not products. Only products can be considered as property. Now, I still don't mean that one has the rights to force someone to "give away" their experience, emotion, effort etc. But these are not bound to the copies of the works said person makes.

Ofcourse the experience are bound to the copies. You can delete or return the copy, then you can't enjoy/experience from it anymore.

You don't have the right to enjoy the copy you stole.

[stefancrs]

Now think again.
Digital copy or not.
You are also stealing the experience, emotion, effort etc., you get out of that copy. You don't have the right to that.

Those are not stealable. If they where, I'd also be able to return them after I had stolen them. They are not products. Only products can be considered as property. Now, I still don't mean that one has the rights to force someone to "give away" their experience, emotion, effort etc. But these are not bound to the copies of the works said person makes.

Ofcourse the experience are bound to the copies. You can delete or return the copy, then you can't enjoy/experience from it anymore.

You don't have the right to enjoy the copy you stole.

No, then the experience would be divided up between the copies. The artists experience, or intellectual property if you will, does not change if I make more copies of his work. And even if you DO delete the copy you can still remember for instance a song, sing it and enjoy it, play it yourself on a guitar if you're into that etc. You can't un-experience a song you already have heard. Indeed you can delete / return the copy, but seeing that as returning intellectual property is just trying to pretend intellectual property is something material when it is not.

How do I return a concert experience after I have been at it? Isn't the artists experience also spread out here? (If you think it is, it is not bound to the copies).

[laputa_sync]

the answers might be here...
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 21#1979821

[Cryogenic]

Now think again.
Digital copy or not.
You are also stealing the experience, emotion, effort etc., you get out of that copy. You don't have the right to that.

Those are not stealable. If they where, I'd also be able to return them after I had stolen them. They are not products. Only products can be considered as property. Now, I still don't mean that one has the rights to force someone to "give away" their experience, emotion, effort etc. But these are not bound to the copies of the works said person makes.

Ofcourse the experience are bound to the copies. You can delete or return the copy, then you can't enjoy/experience from it anymore.

You don't have the right to enjoy the copy you stole.

No, then the experience would be divided up between the copies. The artists experience, or intellectual property if you will, does not change if I make more copies of his work. And even if you DO delete the copy you can still remember for instance a song, sing it and enjoy it, play it yourself on a guitar if you're into that etc. You can't un-experience a song you already have heard. Indeed you can delete / return the copy, but seeing that as returning intellectual property is just trying to pretend intellectual property is something material when it is not.

How do I return a concert experience after I have been at it? Isn't the artists experience also spread out here? (If you think it is, it is not bound to the copies).

So you buy a cd, and listen to it just once, because you then have experienced it and are finished with that?

Property or not. You don't have the right to what ever experience, emotions etc. you get out of a stolen copy. Thats the essence.

[Cryogenic]

the answers might be here...
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 21#1979821

It's getting old.
Now stfu.

[stefancrs]

So you buy a cd, and listen to it just once, because you then have experienced it and are finished with that?

No, how did you come to that conclusion?

Property or not. You don't have the right to what ever experience, emotions etc. you get out of a stolen copy. Thats the essence.

But a stolen copy is only stolen if the physical media is stolen (like a CD from a store). A digital copy isn't a stolen copy, since no-one lost any property. There's a huge difference between copyright infringement and theft, since theft is when you actually steal something. And I don't agree about the essence. Having the rights to say what people are allowed to do and not with something they buy, or something you actually decide to share with the world, is kindof made up and forced to resemble the rights we have to physical property, eventhough the two are very much unlike in their nature.

Try flipping the analogy around. Put non-material values upon something material. What if cars could be created and duplicated endlessly at virtually no cost and no effort. What would the value of cars be? Supply would be endless, demand would be finite. What would the value be?

When something naturally has an endless supply, it's natural market value is zero. What we do with our current copyright system is that we force a made up value upon such things, just to keep the businessess alive. Not to keep the market alive, because the market would still be there (just based on the actual service that is provided, not the copies of the works).