The most authentic Rhodes?

[BertKoor]

A soundfont is better than an endlesly tweakable (think pickup placement, damper, fork model, mallet stiffness just for starters) physically modelled Rhodes designed by feckin' geniuses and used by pros?

On a real Rhodes you couldn't really tweak all that (without taking it apart, replacing a bunch of parts and putting it together again). It came "as is", much like the soundfont version

[Stupid American Pig]

I will say that the only physical model of a rhodes that sounds anything like a rhodes to me is Mr Ray. Lounge lizard just doesnt cut it as a rhodes IMHO. Of course you also need to decide *which* rhodes you want to emulate, early mkI, mid - late 70s mkI and MkII, or the more bell like dyno my rhodes, and MK V. they all sounded a bit different. I havent heard the scarbee, but I was only semi impressed with NI electrik piano, the electromechanical refill doesnt sound too great(though there is a pretty good pianet T set, and one of the wurly 100 series sets is decent) Usually I use Mr Ray or Mr Tramp, even though I sit next to a '76 Mk I stage piano and late 60s Wurly ep-200. It is just so much easier with quantize and a piano roll

[Reverend Rhythm]

My rhodes sits in a closet. Software is just so much easier.

[pethu]

I will say that the only physical model of a rhodes that sounds anything like a rhodes to me is Mr Ray.

=


(Note: Most presets shown in the mixer list HAVE been tweaked... heavily.)

[fr4ncesco]

last year I made a quick EXT tutorial for an italian website. This was an example



(sorry for the bad image quality)

[soniccouture]

IMO Lounge lizard was indistinguisable in a/b tests with a real suitcase

[emdot_ambient]

I'm always baffled with the whole question. The only people who care whether it sounds like an authentic [insert electric piano here] are 1) keyboard geek purists, and 2) people who really, really, really know the original song you're doing a cover of (assuming you're doing a cover). I've been listening to keyboard-based music since the mid 1970's. I'm even considered a gear geek by my friends. And yet, I've only recently been able to listen to a some old songs and pick out which electric piano they were using. Unless you're trying to do a 100% authentic recreation of a particular song, I can't see the point of splitting hairs over which product is most authentic. All the ones mentioned so far do perfect good e-piano sounds. I personally us Lounge Lizard and would lean toward physical modeling over samples only because of PM allows for greater control over the sound. What I'm after is a sound that works in whatever song I'm working on at the time, and I've never found a case where Lounge Lizard wouldn't work.

[learjeff]

Thanks for all the kinds words, folks!

I'm also a big fan of MrRay73, which has the advantage of it's low memory and CPU requirements. Guido, the author, was inspired by my samples to revisit MrRay, and we had a number of conversations, but the result sounds much more like Scarbee than my Rhodes samples.

For authenticity, Scarbee is the best IMHO. The loudest samples are not quite as hot as I like, but then I break tines now and then.

My soundfont is EQ'd to sound the way I like my Rhodes to sound, so it's not the 'pure thing'. Also, my sf's hottest low note samples aren't very good for technical reasons I won't go into, and which I hope to fix some day. But I play the stereo version all the time, both live and in the studio, and I like it. I generally don't apply any FX, since I baked in the effects I like. But no doubt it would be fun to use with any manner of things that have been used over the years: tube distortion, speaker modelling, stereo vibrato (esp. if it matches the classic suitcase piano, like Scarbee's FX does), wah pedal, auto-wha, etc. The list is endless.

The last time I tried Lounge Lizard was quite some time ago, but it sounded very artifical to me, as did earlier versions of MrRay. While some folks raved about them, they were musically useless to me since they didn't provide the sound I wanted. However, I understand LL has had a major revision since then, so I should try the demo and see what I think.

In any case, authenticity is cool, but music is what matters. There are many aspects of my sf and the others that are NOT authentic. For example, the Rhodes has a very nasty hiss at about -50dB, and if you like to EQ up the highs as I do, it sounds like crap when you're not playing it, during quiet moments. Thus, we filter out the noise! For another example, I always played my Rhodes through a Roland RE301 Chorus Echo for the mild stereo chorus effect. But I had a problem: if I turned the chorus amount up enough for it to sound good on low notes, the high notes were way too chorused. (Note that I did not want a chorus sound per se, but a moving stereo image.) So, in my stereo soundfont, I used a technique of applying a pitch-shifting & chorus effect to each sample, and it completely overcomes this problem. I also applied some compression to the samples in the stereo version. Note that compressing samples yields a different effect than compressing the output! And best of all, it's totally weightless.

Note that there are really three different authentic Rhodes sounds:

A) "Fender Rhodes", pre Mark I, late 60's
B) Early Mark I
C) Late Mark I & Mark II

Between A and B, hammers, tines, and resonators all changed dramatically. A is the classic Chick Corea / Return To Forever tone, though I'm sure he used all three at different times.

Between B and C, the harp frame changed from all wood to wood and metal, making maintenance a lot easier and some say it affected the sound. More importantly, the tines changed from ones that break rather easily to ones that take a real effort to break (and a few beers help too). The newer sound was a little less crisp, but I think also better defined in the bass region. (Fatter? Rounder? Hard to say in words.)

My sf, MrRay73, and Scarbee are all C style. Of these, my SF is EQd to sound more like an early Mark I (more bell-like attack), but it's just a late Mark I EQ'd so not the same thing.

It would be great if someone could focus on providing samples of the A and B style Rhodes.

Note that I don't talk about later Rhodes such as Mark III through Mark V, simply because I haven't played any. But I believe they're hard to distinguish from C style.

B and C are hard to distinguish in many recordings, but when you A/B them in a given setup they're pretty easy to tell apart. (Also, the action got smoother/faster in C, IIRC, but that's beside the point for clones!)

BTW, Scarbee doesn't actually state the year of their Mark I, but I'm fairly confident that it's a late-model Mark I (just like my 1977 Mark I Stage 73).

Finally, all Rhodes sound a little different, largely due to setup and wear. Hammer tips soften and develop grooves, and there are many physical adjustments to tines and pickups. Also, some tines just seem to vibrate funny, beating. I hear this on some notes in Scarbee and other notes on my Rhodes, but none of the notes in MrRay. And while lack of any of these funny tines isn't necessarily "authentic", I consider it a virtue rather than a flaw in MrRay.

BTW, since I now have more memory on my computer, I'm thinking of reworking the stereo looped version to either be unlooped, or putting the loop points further out. I can hear those loop points: the stereo image stops moving at that point for one thing. (And they sound like loop points always do: static and slight anomalies.) However, I rarely actually hear these problems when I'm playing, so it's not a high priority. And one of these days I'd like to fix those bass samples, but I think that means rebalancing the whole set of samples. (The real problem is those samples are too quiet relative to the others.)

Anyway, I'm spending my soundfont-technology time these days trying to create a program to make it a whole lot easier for other folks to create similar quality multisample soundfonts, so we can have a really good wurlitzer too, etc. The number of technical details to manage is mind-boggling, and it's better to get the computer to do the math and bookkeeping, isn't it?

Cheers
Jeff

[learjeff]

Hey, wouldn't it be nice (if we were older, then we wouldn't have to wait for so long ... oops never mind) if folks would post links to samples of different Rhodes clones? If we get a nice set of them, I'd be happy to collect them and put them on a webpage somewhere for posterity.

Obviously I know where to find samples of mine and Scarbee. I believe I can find an excellent example using MrRay73, where Guido could tell immediately it was MrRay, but frankly I was fooled at first into thinking it just might be real. I'll post some links when I get time later.

After all, this keeps coming up and it might be fun.

Another thing we could do if we want is create a MIDI file with a number of styles and play it though each. There are serious disadvantages to this method (you should play the piano you're playing!) but nonetheless it can be illuminating.

For a similar thing for digital pianos, see http://www.purgatorycreek.com.

[Spitfire31]

but if you want the s**t, buy Lounge Lizard, or Scarbee, or NI Elektik Piano".

Y'know? Common sense, me sons!

Maybe, but personally I've always thought Lounge Lizard sounded a little like crap.

I'd agree if you talk about LL2. But Lounge Lizard 3 is a completely different animal; not without issues but extremely playable and it's easy to get Rhodes AND Wurly sounds that respond to your playing style.

[Boulotaur2024]

Great thread, thanks everyone for your contribution.

@pethu: could you please share your .ext preset with us ?

Obviously I know where to find samples of mine and Scarbee. I believe I can find an excellent example using MrRay73, where Guido could tell immediately it was MrRay, but frankly I was fooled at first into thinking it just might be real. I'll post some links when I get time later.

Oh yea, please do.

[learjeff]

OK, I'll start collecting them. Some aren't on line any more so I've sent some emails.

[c3boy]

Best Rhodes is Scarbee Rhodes. Blows LL3 away and everything else, I thought LL3 was rubbish and I come from owning both suitcase and Stage versions

Peace

[IPlay4God]

All of these programs are really close, but they lack one important thing that makes the Rhodes the ultimate and that's the Funk effect. When you hit that Rhodes the right way in the higher registers it gives it this "whack," "thwack," effect that really adds the funk to the Rhodes: Here is an example here of a real rhodes out of a NY lounge: http://www.jamalhartwell.com/MP3_Jams/Rhodes_Bark.mp3

In all of the demos I have heard, I have not heard this effect be duplicated in any plugin and even though they are getting soooo sooo close. How in the world can I get this sound...Scarbee is close...real close....but without this little tiny small, but important nuance, it is still missing the most important funk-factor!

Please help!!!

[wildzeke]

I would be intereted in the .ext preset as well.

Great thread, thanks everyone for your contribution.

@pethu: could you please share your .ext preset with us ?

Obviously I know where to find samples of mine and Scarbee. I believe I can find an excellent example using MrRay73, where Guido could tell immediately it was MrRay, but frankly I was fooled at first into thinking it just might be real. I'll post some links when I get time later.

Oh yea, please do.