What host for Groove Quantize and Advanced Piano Roll?

[Cap'n Spanky]

Oh, man - let's not go there! Cap'n Spanky, conventional wisdom would suggest to me that whatever you like using and what fits your needs best is the best. We can debate this till the cows come home, there's always something that one has that the others don't.

You're right, bduffy! I zapped that post.

Although, it may be too late

[sjm]

Yeah, at the end of the day, you should try them all out - and not just "does X do what I want?", but also "can I see myself using X for 5 hours on end?". i.e. don't just look at features, go through the whole process of making a (short) song in a couple of hosts. Everyone will have there own way of going about things - you might never encounter Cubase's idiosyncrasies as your method of working is completely different.

My observations on Cubase are simply from an IT perspective - it's the paradigm of how not do design a UI. The number of steps required to get the software to do what you want should be kept to a minimum, with the most frequently accessed features no more than a single click away.

Of course, if you aren't interested in doing hardcore MIDI editing, you won't care either way. If you can record a take and generally be happy with it, you won't need to do much editing, other than fixing a few glitches here and there.

Now I've been known to do entire songs where the MIDI has been recorded using the 16 buttons on a Roland groove box. Hardly ideal I know, but bear with me a second, because it's illustrative of my point Each of these keys is binary - it's on/off. So there's no velocity, only one octave, it's easy to slip off the buttons etc. So most of the effort is in editing the recording afterwards. In FL, editing each single note, its velocity, placing, length, pitch etc. is a single tool; you can go through the entire take in a few minutes, and get it into some sort of acceptable shape. In Cubase, it's a real hassle editing the note AND its velocity at the same time; in fact (IIRC) you have to switch between tools to do so for no apparent reason. Whilst this is hardly the setup that most people will be using, but it brings out the good and bad points of the two piano rolls. If you need to edit more than one thing at a time, Cubase is a mess.

Now there are other types of MIDI programming that require a lot of editing (programming guitars is a good example), where you need to keep tuning different things, like note length, pitch bends, velocity etc. etc. In this case, you really need the ability to access all these settings with a minimum of fuss. The process here is not that different to editing the input from the groove box - you can't just play a guitar patch from a keyboard and think, hey presto, next instrument

If you just want to record MIDI, quantise it a bit, and fix the odd glitch, Cubase is more than fine. After all, you might be planning on recording your guitars live, rather than programming them...


And obviously, there's more to a host than the piano roll.

[TotcProductions]

I don't care what anyone says....Cubase has some of the most powerful midi editing tools available. They so often get ignored around these parts....excellent stuff. Besides, F*ck piano rolls...learn how to play your keyboard.

Peace

Hey! I like meticulously drawing in flams and slides....

[bduffy]

I don't care what anyone says....Cubase has some of the most powerful midi editing tools available. They so often get ignored around these parts....excellent stuff. Besides, F*ck piano rolls...learn how to play your keyboard.

Peace

Hey! I like meticulously drawing in flams and slides....

Actually, my keyboard is so lousy, this is actually true.

[bduffy]

Yeah, at the end of the day, you should try them all out - and not just "does X do what I want?", but also "can I see myself using X for 5 hours on end?". i.e. don't just look at features, go through the whole process of making a (short) song in a couple of hosts. Everyone will have there own way of going about things - you might never encounter Cubase's idiosyncrasies as your method of working is completely different.

My observations on Cubase are simply from an IT perspective - it's the paradigm of how not do design a UI. The number of steps required to get the software to do what you want should be kept to a minimum, with the most frequently accessed features no more than a single click away.

Of course, if you aren't interested in doing hardcore MIDI editing, you won't care either way. If you can record a take and generally be happy with it, you won't need to do much editing, other than fixing a few glitches here and there.

Now I've been known to do entire songs where the MIDI has been recorded using the 16 buttons on a Roland groove box. Hardly ideal I know, but bear with me a second, because it's illustrative of my point Each of these keys is binary - it's on/off. So there's no velocity, only one octave, it's easy to slip off the buttons etc. So most of the effort is in editing the recording afterwards. In FL, editing each single note, its velocity, placing, length, pitch etc. is a single tool; you can go through the entire take in a few minutes, and get it into some sort of acceptable shape. In Cubase, it's a real hassle editing the note AND its velocity at the same time; in fact (IIRC) you have to switch between tools to do so for no apparent reason. Whilst this is hardly the setup that most people will be using, but it brings out the good and bad points of the two piano rolls. If you need to edit more than one thing at a time, Cubase is a mess.

Now there are other types of MIDI programming that require a lot of editing (programming guitars is a good example), where you need to keep tuning different things, like note length, pitch bends, velocity etc. etc. In this case, you really need the ability to access all these settings with a minimum of fuss. The process here is not that different to editing the input from the groove box - you can't just play a guitar patch from a keyboard and think, hey presto, next instrument

If you just want to record MIDI, quantise it a bit, and fix the odd glitch, Cubase is more than fine. After all, you might be planning on recording your guitars live, rather than programming them...


And obviously, there's more to a host than the piano roll.

sjm, I don't get it: why would you want to fix more than one thing at a time? Are you talking about macros? How can you change a note and its velocity at the same time? I'm sure it's my Cubase-imposed myopia, but I just can't tie your points together here...

[TotcProductions]

I don't care what anyone says....Cubase has some of the most powerful midi editing tools available. They so often get ignored around these parts....excellent stuff. Besides, F*ck piano rolls...learn how to play your keyboard.

Peace

Hey! I like meticulously drawing in flams and slides....

Actually, my keyboard is so lousy, this is actually true.

I've had my Edirol PCR-50 for a while now...always liked it. Ocassionally I'll use one of my hardware synths as a controller though. I'm looking into adding one of those new Novation SL controllers though...and possibly a Korg PadKontrol...that's a sexy little thing.

[Cap'n Spanky]

I'm no one take wonder. Especially on the keyboard.

In the piano roll I'll be doing a lot of composing, fixing, tweaking, etc.

[bduffy]

I'm no one take wonder. Especially on the keyboard.

In the piano roll I'll be doing a lot of composing, fixing, tweaking, etc.

Me too, brother!

I'd like to hear sjm elaborate on his ideas, because apart from macros, I haven't really used a Piano Roll that is that much faster than any other. It's usually a matter of the right features being there. I just don't see Cubase lacking in this department, although I agree you do have to switch tools a lot, but it seems necessary.

I've had my Edirol PCR-50 for a while now...always liked it. Ocassionally I'll use one of my hardware synths as a controller though. I'm looking into adding one of those new Novation SL controllers though...and possibly a Korg PadKontrol...that's a sexy little thing.

Edirol PCR-50 you say? I'll check it out. I almost bought a Trigger Finger for drums (YEAH!), but I think the sale fell through. Realistic drumming is programming priority #1 for me, and drumming on a keyboard sucks!

[TotcProductions]

I'm no one take wonder. Especially on the keyboard.

In the piano roll I'll be doing a lot of composing, fixing, tweaking, etc.

Me too, brother!

I'd like to hear sjm elaborate on his ideas, because apart from macros, I haven't really used a Piano Roll that is that much faster than any other. It's usually a matter of the right features being there. I just don't see Cubase lacking in this department, although I agree you do have to switch tools a lot, but it seems necessary.

I've had my Edirol PCR-50 for a while now...always liked it. Ocassionally I'll use one of my hardware synths as a controller though. I'm looking into adding one of those new Novation SL controllers though...and possibly a Korg PadKontrol...that's a sexy little thing.

Edirol PCR-50 you say? I'll check it out. I almost bought a Trigger Finger for drums (YEAH!), but I think the sale fell through. Realistic drumming is programming priority #1 for me, and drumming on a keyboard sucks!

Yup....the newer models of the PCR series have all kinds of new velocity curve features as well....bought one for my girlfriend a couple months ago, and I have to say I was jealous of her newer model. Aftertouch is a bitch with it though....thats why I end up using the hardware synths eventually...that's mostly why I'm looking at the Novation line....nice aftertouch implementation, and of course, that darling little X-Y pad on the side.

[bduffy]

I'm no one take wonder. Especially on the keyboard.

In the piano roll I'll be doing a lot of composing, fixing, tweaking, etc.

Me too, brother!

I'd like to hear sjm elaborate on his ideas, because apart from macros, I haven't really used a Piano Roll that is that much faster than any other. It's usually a matter of the right features being there. I just don't see Cubase lacking in this department, although I agree you do have to switch tools a lot, but it seems necessary.

I've had my Edirol PCR-50 for a while now...always liked it. Ocassionally I'll use one of my hardware synths as a controller though. I'm looking into adding one of those new Novation SL controllers though...and possibly a Korg PadKontrol...that's a sexy little thing.

Edirol PCR-50 you say? I'll check it out. I almost bought a Trigger Finger for drums (YEAH!), but I think the sale fell through. Realistic drumming is programming priority #1 for me, and drumming on a keyboard sucks!

Yup....the newer models of the PCR series have all kinds of new velocity curve features as well....bought one for my girlfriend a couple months ago, and I have to say I was jealous of her newer model. Aftertouch is a bitch with it though....thats why I end up using the hardware synths eventually...that's mostly why I'm looking at the Novation line....nice aftertouch implementation, and of course, that darling little X-Y pad on the side.

Coool...(jealous of the girlfriend's model...there's a joke in there somewhere!) What is the "bitch" about aftertouch on most controllers?

[bduffy]

OMG!

Pre-installed onboard Templates and Automaps

Software:
Novation
• V-Station
• Bass Station
Propellerhead (only Automap)
• Reason – All Instruments, Mixer, rack effects
Native Instruments
• FM7
• Pro 53
• Battery II
• Kontakt II
• B4
G Media
• Oddity
• ImpOSCar
• Minimonsta
Steinberg
• Cubase/Nuendo Automap - Mixer/Effects and VSTs
• Halion
Cakewalk
• Z3ta
Korg
• Legacy Cell
• MS-20
• Polysix
reFX
• Vanguard
Arturia
• CS-80V
• Arp 2600V
Rob Papen/Linplug
• Albino
Apple
• Logic Automap - Mixer and Instruments
Ableton
• Live Automap - Mixer/Navigation and Effects

Yeah, this thing looks pretty hot!

[TotcProductions]

OMG!

Pre-installed onboard Templates and Automaps

Software:
Novation
• V-Station
• Bass Station
Propellerhead (only Automap)
• Reason - All Instruments, Mixer, rack effects
Native Instruments
• FM7
• Pro 53
• Battery II
• Kontakt II
• B4
G Media
• Oddity
• ImpOSCar
• Minimonsta
Steinberg
• Cubase/Nuendo Automap - Mixer/Effects and VSTs
• Halion
Cakewalk
• Z3ta
Korg
• Legacy Cell
• MS-20
• Polysix
reFX
• Vanguard
Arturia
• CS-80V
• Arp 2600V
Rob Papen/Linplug
• Albino
Apple
• Logic Automap - Mixer and Instruments
Ableton
• Live Automap - Mixer/Navigation and Effects

Yeah, this thing looks pretty hot!

Yeah, I know. I've been drooling over it since it was announced. I really can't wait til I can afford one. It might even force me to take a break from patching and write some damn music.

Oh, the aftertouch....well, on alot of controllers, it's not included at all. it's always been a 'high-end' feature. The edirol implements it via a slider (or whatever control you decide to map it to), which IMO, is just ridiculous.

Peace

[bduffy]

Yeah, I know. I've been drooling over it since it was announced. I really can't wait til I can afford one. It might even force me to take a break from patching and write some damn music.

Oh, the aftertouch....well, on alot of controllers, it's not included at all. it's always been a 'high-end' feature. The edirol implements it via a slider (or whatever control you decide to map it to), which IMO, is just ridiculous.

Peace

Oh yeah. Well, that looks like tha shiznit. Good luck with that! One day I look forward to velocity sensitivity!

[TotcProductions]

One day I look forward to velocity sensitivity!

Oh man, talk about the stone-age.

Can we pass around a donation plate for my good buddy bduffy? C'mon, it's just terrible to watch the poor guy get buy without velocity sensitivity. I would donate, but I'm broke

Start writing some letters to a few of these controller companies...offer some services in exchange for some free stuff. It's worked for me on occasion.

Peace

[bduffy]

One day I look forward to velocity sensitivity!

Oh man, talk about the stone-age.

Can we pass around a donation plate for my good buddy bduffy? C'mon, it's just terrible to watch the poor guy get buy without velocity sensitivity. I would donate, but I'm broke

Start writing some letters to a few of these controller companies...offer some services in exchange for some free stuff. It's worked for me on occasion.

Peace

OMG! ROTFL!

Well, yeah, if that kind of thing is possible. I'm 5'7", fit, brunette...oh! You mean musical services!

Not to worry, I'm a master at Piano Roll Velocity editing. I have a shit Yamaha keyboard that I felt compelled to accept as a hand-me-down from my Dad. I will replace within the year, however; there's no way I can go on with that! If I really need to capture a live performance, I use the Roland XP at work.

But hey, if anyone has an extra controller, I do play Guitar, Keyboards, Drums and Bass...

Thanks, Totc.