KVR Audio

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:12 pm

I'm not unhappy with my purchase, because I love Live (as everyone knows

). Just a little concerned that Ableton are perhaps becoming <cough> a little greedy - I think this could be off putting for new customers.

For me personally the cost has been Live 2 (£250) + upgrade to 4 (£120?), upgrade to 5 + Operator (£140) and now the upgrade to 6 will be another £110 ish. I've used and enjoyed each version of course, so I'm getting plenty of value for money.

But compared to (for example) FL Studio with its free upgrades... well, I'm a little jealous of that IMage LIne policy, to say the least! Also I think I'm getting better treatment from Cakewalk in terms of vfm on upgrades and extras.

But there it is - I still love Live

dgkenney · Post by **dgkenney** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:50 pm

Like headquest I am an out-an-out Live lover, but I am also getting a little concerned over price structure. I think what adds to the concern are the add ons such as Operator and now Sampler. Of course other companies have additional instruments (e.g. Sonar and Dimension) but with Live the additional instruments are NOT usable anywhere except in Live and that at least to me seems to lessen the value a tad.

The fact that they are seamlessly integrated into Live also gives the impression that somehow you don't have the full Live program if you don't have them also. I don't have any use for Operator based upon my style of music and between ST2XL/SS2 and Halion I don't have a need for a Sampler. Never-the-less, the gear slut in me feels a little left out

Of course each of us has a financial limit. But the truth is I'm kind of screwed because I am addicted to Live. They got me walking the upgrade path with wallet in hand.

The "problem" I have with Live is that it is a perfect match to how I want to work with my music. Features aside, if the workflow is intuitive to you (as it is to me in Live) price is going to be a somewhat secondary factor. A perfect example is Cakewalk - great progam - I can't use it. Something in my brain is hardwired to be opposite of every way in which that program works. Cubase was more to my liking and was my go-to DAW. Although I still try to keep active with Cubase, Live is what I fire up when I have a musical idea.

So there you have it. I am a Live zombie - addicted to those little 2 dimnensinal dials and colored clips. It could be worse I suppose if I fell for Nuendo or Sequoia.

Dan

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:08 pm

I'm so stoked about being able to tempo match to a freeform track... This is not mentioned on any of the Ableton info pages, but becomes one of the more interesting features for me!

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:43 pm

Dan, I think you summed up exactly how I feel there. Great post.

When Operator came out there was something of a backlash on the Abes forum because of the cost (which I still think is overpriced, by the way, especially because as Dan says, Operator is locked into Live only). I didn;t buy it, but begun to feel a bit like a second-class citizen. Consider that the demo and tutorial songs in Live 5 almost all use Operator, which means that the software one has bought reverts into demo mode whenever you open those files, and a big red warning appears in the lower part of the screen! - pretty cheeky in my opinion. I hope the same will not apply now with Sampler as well.

I think that at present many Live users on the Abes forum are still digesting the Live 6 announcement. But when Sampler is out, and the $199 price tag sinks in more, I think there could be quite a significant backlash among Live users, and that's not good for the product as a whole. Also I suspect that - unless Sampler has something up its sleeve that I've not yet comprehended - it could well get crucified in the press (Computer Music, et al) because it does not seem to compare favourably with other sampler products in terms of value and features. This could easily lose a lot of the support and momentum that Ableton currently enjoy with the media, and burst their bubble. Even the higher cost of Live itself ($100 rise) is likely to get a poor reception from reviewers, I would expect, however good the SI content proves to be...

But like Dan says, Live is still the only sequencer for me in terms of workflow. I'm in this for the duration, and once again I will be shelling out.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:21 pm

I think the basic Live package and upgrade structure is pretty reasonable. The upgrade fee for Live 5 -> 6 without the boxed content is $110 or so, which isn't crazy.

The instruments, on the other hand, are a ripoff. You can't record automation of Live plugs into session clips, unlike third party plugs, and they have to sit in the small instrument strip at the bottom instead of free floating like any VST. This means Operator, which would be a single page & straightforward synth if it were a VST, is instead a tiny multipaged widget that costs as much as several far more powerful VSTs. No thanks. I actually did buy Operator when it came out mainly as a show of support but I never use it and haven't even bothered to reauthorize it on my new laptop. It's pretty unlikely I'll buy Sampler, althoug the ability to just drag audio clips from session or arrange into it is pretty enticing.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:23 pm

headquest wrote: But like Dan says, Live is still the only sequencer for me in terms of workflow. I'm in this for the duration, and once again I will be shelling out.

I'm pretty addicted to the session view too, but the arrange view is a total dog. I'm finding that I tend to start a lot of tracks in Live and get some good ideas down but I very rarely finish them because doing detailed work in the arrange view is miserable and transferring everything over to Logic or Cubase is too much work.

pHz · Post by **pHz** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:28 pm

kuniklo wrote:
headquest wrote: But like Dan says, Live is still the only sequencer for me in terms of workflow. I'm in this for the duration, and once again I will be shelling out.
I'm pretty addicted to the session view too, but the arrange view is a total dog. I'm finding that I tend to start a lot of tracks in Live and get some good ideas down but I very rarely finish them because doing detailed work in the arrange view is miserable and transferring everything over to Logic or Cubase is too much work.

thankfully not just me then ... apart from the logic / cubase thing obviously ...

slainte

rob

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:34 pm

kuniklo wrote:It's pretty unlikely I'll buy Sampler, althoug the ability to just drag audio clips from session or arrange into it is pretty enticing.

Hmm, I hear the faint glimmer of a cha-ching in the Abes future there.

Whoever does marketing strategy for Ableton, I want to hire them next time I have something big to sell. They're like the ballet dancers of selling stuff.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:37 pm

shamann wrote: Hmm, I hear the faint glimmer of a cha-ching in the Abes future there.

Whoever does marketing strategy for Ableton, I want to hire them next time I have something big to sell. They're like the ballet dancers of selling stuff.

Ironically, although Sampler compares pretty poorly overall to the big players like Kontakt, it is in some ways a lot closer to the kind of sound-design sampler I was lamenting the absence of in my inflammatory thread of a few months ago. The ability to just grab bits of audio at random, load them into sampler, mangle them beyond recognition, then lather, rinse, repeat, could be pretty cool.

On the other hand, I just plunked down some very serious cash for a V-Synth, so there's not much budget left around here for more toys.

I think Ableton is the Apple of the music marketing world. They're selling style as much as substance.

zai · Post by **zai** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:02 pm

I use Live all the time. Easy to use and it functions as a "host" very nicely. I have to say that I use Live more than I use Logic Pro 7. When I need to lay down an idea, Live is perfect.

I've been using Live since v.2. Each upgrade brings something new to the table and I've never hesitated when a new version is out. Having said that, I only wish they focus on making Live as a "host" more than trying to come out with their own "instruments". I'm sure they're useful and very streamline with Live in looks and functionality. But...one can find other instruments that would work either as a VST or AU within Live...sometimes even cheaper than Operator or Sampler (I have not tried them, again, I'm just saying that there are many VST/AU companies out there with these products already).

Just a thought of mine....

Zai

kovacs · Post by **kovacs** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:04 pm

I jumped on the Operator bandwagon too, and have used it once, I think. But I use Live exclusively (I got there from FL Studio which I could never wrap my brain around). But for me the Arranger view is what makes it a killer app for me - I use Session view to get the basic stuff going but do all the hard work in the Arranger.

I look forward to Live 6. I think the new price is a big mistake however. If I was in the market for a new DAW at the moment Live would not be available due to the high price of Live 6. Hell, I got in simply because I owned a Live Delta which came with my Audiophile...

mckenic · Post by **mckenic** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:10 pm

Just been skimming found this thread... got my email from the Abelton lastnight and I admit to being surprised with the upgrade price from 5-6

I bought live 3 'used' and followed the upgrade path thus far from 4 to 5...

I've been using the Arrange view a LOT of late for guitar multitracking (I dont like the way Fruity works for linier recording). Im getting to quite like 5 a LOT but for me the Midi side of things is un-intuitive - may be just me

Video would be nice but not a clincher - that will be the €99 upgrade price... the midi side of things keeps me away from using Live exclusively, so I have to use another app (Fruity)... Think I'll be skipping this update

But I also said that about Komplete 3 and then the Kore deal came about so lets see what the future 'deals' will be.

For now its a resounding 'NO'

Enjoyed the thread - there is some great points here!

Dave

original flipper · Post by **original flipper** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:35 pm

HI

Unfortunately V4 didn't live (?!) up to expectations - on the midi side really - it just frustrated me, although I thought it would grow on me.

I have never settled into a sequencer since Logic PC!

I really enjoy using Live's automation and having a dual Xeon makes the incoming update kinda attractive.

The piano-roll is still a pita for me, but I also use XT.

XT has not got the dual CPU side sorted - at the moment it is still glichy.

I also have dual monitors which again are not of much use with Live ... but I do enjoy using it for certain ideas.

XTV2 should hopefully allow me to pair them up!

I am not having a mega rant, but rather pointing out how shorter turnaround on versions comes at a cost of not only money but user requested enhancements.

Flipper.

ericj23 · Post by **ericj23** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:45 pm

I demo live evry now and then as i think i can get a cheap upgrade - i do this with reason occasionally too

but the real show stopper for me was the ability to only automate the first 128 parameters of a vst - there are so many that go way beyond those numbers that its not worth mentioning

if they have this sorted i might finally have found my scratchpad host

kovacs · Post by **kovacs** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:14 pm

I am not getting Kore (even though I'd love to in order to get the K2->K3 upgrade) because frankly it's beyond my budget at the moment. I am hoping the new rack feature will solve some of it, along with my planned purchase of the Novation Remote 37SL...

Live has become my #1 tool so I don't see myself switching hosts, and I am most definitely getting the upgrade when it comes. But the sampler is not for me...already got Kontakt 2 and still need to learn it.