Any vst's out there that have a cross-mod option for oscs?

[tony tony chopper]

well, it sounds just like the patch I posted

I thought you were gonna say it didn't.

It's actually sine FM feedback for the base saw, a little FM with 2 other modulators, to get that jittering source for the filter, which is based on a moog filter designed by Antti at musicdsp.org.
And it eats 3% of my CPU.

Btw there seems to be so much static in pro53's osc to filter, that it looks like they don't process it sample by sample, and don't ramp it.

[AdmiralQuality]

If you're modding the moog-y filter with an osc at an audio pitch, that's exactly what we're all talking about. I don't think you need to mod the osc on itself (or is that how you're making the saw? Sine feeding back on itself? Don't answer... I don't care.)

And ya, that's why I said "even Pro53 does this". It's a good example of a bad example (but to NI's credit, that's one of the older VSTis out there.)

Anyway, now that you know how to make the sound you don't like, have fun with your "standard FM" and your loops, fruit.

[tony tony chopper]

If you're modding the moog-y filter with an osc at an audio pitch

I'm not modulating the filter at all (other than the long ramp down for the demo), that's my point.

have fun with your "standard FM" and your loops, fruit.

the good old fruityloops jokes, I missed them

[Gavin@Arturia]

Alot of the higher number presets in the orignal prophet 5 use audio rate modulation. One in particular, Alien Landing, has the filter in self oscillation at around 150Hz if I remember correct and then the filter is modulated by Oscillator B via the the polymod section at audio rate. An LFO is added into the mix to add some further movement. The preset is also in unison mode. Sounds massive to say the least.

[jmh]

Heh, I have a JX-3P. The Metal is a ring mod I think. Used to effect in the JX-3P's "Chime" preset.

We'll see, as far as I can recall it wasn't ring mod. Anyways, since I have to sample an example of the filter for someone, I'll be visiting my JX-3P in a day or two.

Sync is sync, not "Cross Mod" at all

Well, that wasn't really claimed, just what's on the box.

And there is no audio-rate X-mod of the filter on the '3P, only Env and LFO.

Would modulating cutoff from an oscillator really count as crossmod?

The LF in LFO stands for LOW FREQUENCY... i.e. sub-sonic.

O'RLY?

It's "cross mod" when the filter cutoff or another oscillator's pitch it's modded from a regular (non LFO) oscillator, usually in tune with the pitch of the rest of the sound (though not necessarily.))

Well... where exactly this is defined? Isn't that kind of like the subject of the topic. I've never seen a definition anywhere, but the implementations I've run into have suggested it's used to mean that oscillators are able to modulate each other, one way or another. Be it frequency (FM), oscillator phase (Sync) and so on.

It's the vague definition of it that at least used to be the topic of the discussion. I'm kind of curious about it from the viewpoint that where did the term originate from.

Remember Korg Mono/Poly? It had an interesting take on the subject... Quoting a brochure from back in the day:

X-modulation

in this effect, the VCO 2-4 audio signal modulates VCO 1. With FREQ MOD, you can get metallic sounds that are different from the usual ring modulation

http://monopoly.highspies.com/monoad2.html

Modulate what/ how exactly? My bet is on frequency, good old mystical "analog FM". I'd have to visit a friend to verify it though, it's been a long time since I've played with the beast. That site I just linked to has some information on the subject though... and I'm really curious as to why no-one has bothered emulating Mono/Poly yet, it's one friggin' monster of a synth and one of those things I've always considered way superior in every aspect to overhyped overrated pieces like MiniMoogs

And actually, the JX-3P was a later appearance of the term. I think "X-mod" came from the late 70's Oberheims, if not earlier. And on the Prophet 5 (1977) it was called "Poly-Mod". Roland was stealing a term they really didn't have a right to use there, as there's no inter-oscillator FM or osc-filter CFM on the 3P. (IF ONLY!!!)

This is the kind of information I'm interested in So... if Oberheim used the term before, what kind of modulation exactly were they referring to?

Minimoogs do this too. Osc 3 can be an LFO, or an audio osc. And you can mod the filter from it.

Is this the mystical "filter FM" people often refer to? (seriously, every once in a while there's someone talking about "filter FM" which is "different from modulating filter's cutoff"... =))

And jmh, that's the filter X-mod I'm talking about!!! Exactly what you describe!!!

But... it isn't X-mod, just an oscillator modulating the cutoff, right?

Cheers, and sorry I'm getting pissed off, but I really do try to educate around here and some people are just too stubborn to soak it in.

No sweat... it's just there's education and then there's education... hardly anything in the thread so far has really explained what cross modulation means. It's one of those popular terms that hasn't really been defined - or if it has, no-one seems to be able to cough up the definition

And I'm just yankin' ya chain with some of the questions, so no need to reply to the silly ones

(those who were around when a certain developer threw a hissy fit about 'audio rate modulation' being nothing more than a made up marketing recently coined by another developer to sell to the ignorant knew what I mean...)

[AdmiralQuality]

My God you're a twit...

a little FM with 2 other modulators, to get that jittering source for the filter, which is based on a moog filter

I don't know how else to interpret that, than that you're modding the filter. Try using some grammar next time and forming a coherent thought.

And if you recall, the discussion we're having is correcting you on your (vast) misconception that there's no point in modding a filter at audio rates. Not if there are other techniques that can render similar sounds. An hour and a half ago, you didn't even know there was such thing as filter X-mod.

But as a twit, you're not interested in learning something, are you? You're interested in making intentionally bad sounds with other people's products, so you can put them down. YES, SCAMP can make bad sounds. Some VERY bad sounds. We're proud of that, and recommend that our users use their SCAMPy powers with restraint and discretion.

I'm done with you. And we're O.T. anyway, as this thread was about osc->osc mod. But I just wanted to remind everyone of the juicy possibilities of osc->filt mod. And Totc has provided some great examples (thanks man!) This history of analog syntheis proves you wrong, so how many people need to tell you you're wrong for you to STFU?

As to the (oh so appropriate) name of your product, has Kellog's not sued you people out of existance yet? Anyway, if F.L. hires enough twits like you (I assume you work there, as you post on their site), you'll accomplish the same thing, I'm sure.

Ciao.

[AdmiralQuality]

Oh and jmh, I don't know... all these names for things are just marketing B.S. anyway. Perhaps tony^2 chopper can put you in touch with the International Synthesizer Parameter Naming Standards Body. But I'd just say let your ears tell you what's what.

I have a friend with a Mono-Poly, but he won't give it to me.

[tony tony chopper]

I don't know how else to interpret that

well, learn english, and then you'll know

than that you're modding the filter. Try using some grammar next time and forming a coherent thought

Nowhere I'm talking about modulating the filter. I'm talking about an oscillator frequency-modulated by 2 others, and this used as a source to feed the filter (to feed it, not to modulated it). Then it's just a lowpass filter, not modulated by any oscillator. Just very resonant.

the discussion we're having is correcting you on your (vast) misconception that there's no point in modding a filter at audio rates

First, this discussion -which isn't yours nor mine- was about inter-modulating 2 oscillators, not about filter modulation.

Second, I maintain that modulating filter freq by fast oscillators is useless, like the mp3's posted here demonstrate.

Third, I tried to replicate it using no filter modulation to counter your point that your piece of shit plugin from its ghetto web site justifies the 15% CPU it uses.

[AdmiralQuality]

I don't know how else to interpret that

well, learn english, and then you'll know

than that you're modding the filter. Try using some grammar next time and forming a coherent thought

Nowhere I'm talking about modulating the filter. I'm talking about an oscillator frequency-modulated by 2 others, and this used as a source to feed the filter (to feed it, not to modulated it). Then it's just a lowpass filter, not modulated by any oscillator. Just very resonant.

the discussion we're having is correcting you on your (vast) misconception that there's no point in modding a filter at audio rates

First, this discussion -which isn't yours nor mine- was about inter-modulating 2 oscillators, not about filter modulation.

Second, I maintain that modulating filter freq by fast oscillators is useless, like the mp3's posted here demonstrate.

Third, I tried to replicate it using no filter modulation to counter your point that your piece of shit plugin from its ghetto web site justifies the 15% CPU it uses.

Learn English?

http://m-w.com/dictionary/ghetto

Main Entry: 1ghet·to
Pronunciation: 'ge-(")tO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ghettos also ghettoes
Etymology: Italian, from Venetian dialect ghèto island where Jews were forced to live, literally, foundry (located on the island), from ghetàr to cast, from Latin jactare to throw -- more at JET
1 : a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live
2 : a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure
3 a : an isolated group <a geriatric ghetto> b : a situation that resembles a ghetto especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity <the pink-collar ghetto>

There is no usage of the word "ghetto" as an adjective, in English, so its hard to imagine what you could mean. But am I to understand that it is the official position of FLStudio and Image-Line Software that ghettos and the people who are forced to live in them are bad, or somehow of lesser importance than other, more privileged peoples? Does FLStudio have something against some particular race, religion, or the socio-economically pressured? Sure sounds that way.

At Admiral Quality, we respect people of all cultures and economic status, and build software to be enjoyed by anybody who's got $39.95, as well as free software for all of The Earth's peoples.

Prettying up my website doesn't help my customers one bit. We'll do it when there's more to sell, for now development is the priority. You're demonstrating your superficiality wonderfully though. Thanks. Twit.

Now let's declare a cease-fire and give these nice people back their thread. Your opinion has been noted by everyone, I'm sure.

[tony tony chopper]

lol, and what did the admiral drunk who-doesn't-like-poor-people find in his dictionary as for 'piece of shit plugin'?

[AdmiralQuality]

lol, and what did the admiral drunk who-doesn't-like-poor-people find in his dictionary as for 'piece of shit plugin'?

Sir, I AM poor people.

Good day to you.

[ChipCurtis]

Why is there all this talk about the filter when it has nothing to do with oscillator cross-modulation. All this stuff is happening before the signal ever reaches the filter.

Below is an mp3 file I made to demonstrate osc cross-mod using Arppe2600va. In here, osc 1 (a square wave) is being modulated by a osc 2 (a sine wave). I am sweeping the intensity of the cross-mod slider in real time.

http://glenstegner.com/osc_cross_mod.mp3

The tone produced here is quite harsh obviously, but by using different waveforms and different cross-mod configurations, bell-like or EP-like tones can be made. This is how synths like the Roland JX series get their bell-like tones.

[gtg605]

Are there any softsynths that have this? Been kind of interested to see what kind of timbres I could get out of something like that.

Quite many soft synths have " sync", "hardsync" or " sync-mod ". Basically the same thing: One oscillator is modulating the other either via the pitch envelope or manually using a pitch controller ( wheel or knob ). I guess "cross-mod" refers to the option of having both oscillators modulate each other.
I think the best use of this function is when you control the amount of modulation with an envelope or with an LFO.

[deastman]

Are there any softsynths that have this? Been kind of interested to see what kind of timbres I could get out of something like that.

Quite many soft synths have " sync", "hardsync" or " sync-mod ". Basically the same thing: One oscillator is modulating the other either via the pitch envelope or manually using a pitch controller ( wheel or knob ). I guess "cross-mod" refers to the option of having both oscillators modulate each other.
I think the best use of this function is when you control the amount of modulation with an envelope or with an LFO.

This distinction was noted earlier, but basically, sync is what happens when one oscillator retriggers another oscillator. This is different from FM, which is using the output of one oscillator to modulate the frequency of another. Cross-modulation, as I see it, allows two oscillators to modulate each other's frequency, hence the use of "cross". As others have pointed out, the term has been used by different manufacturers to refer to various functions, so the real definition is somewhat poorly defined. I guess at the most basic level, it means modulating one audio-rate oscillator's frequency with another audio-rate oscillator.

[Gavin@Arturia]

Are there any softsynths that have this? Been kind of interested to see what kind of timbres I could get out of something like that.

Quite many soft synths have " sync", "hardsync" or " sync-mod ". Basically the same thing: One oscillator is modulating the other either via the pitch envelope or manually using a pitch controller ( wheel or knob ). I guess "cross-mod" refers to the option of having both oscillators modulate each other.
I think the best use of this function is when you control the amount of modulation with an envelope or with an LFO.

Sync is slightly different to frequency/cross modulation. Sync refers to when you reset the phase of oscillator A (slave) when ever oscillator B (master) completes one full cycle of its pitch peroid.