KVR Audio

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:30 pm

Seems like a lot of higher-end software reverbs are starting to hit the market now, with price tags to match. With plugs like Wizoo W2 and CSR hitting the $200-$300 price range and sometimes including dongles I'm starting to wonder where the value proposition is given that you can pick up a new Lexicon M200 or TC Electronics M300 multi-effects unit for about $150, which needs no CPU, doesn't go stale when hosts and specs change, and presumably sounds pretty good.

I appreciate that there are convience plusses for software, but a reverb, which you're generally going to slap on at the end of a mix and render, doesn't seem as important to store exactly with a project. Are the new software reverbs really that good or is software just jumping the shark a bit these days?

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:15 pm

Reverbs certainly do seem to cost a lot. But, in the two cases you mentioned, both Wizoo and IK charge a lot of money for most of their products, so it may not be a reflection of the cost of reverb.

I have some commercial reverbs, but tend to prefer a few free ones (KarmaFx, xhip) out there and use them more often.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:20 pm

I guess it depends on what kind of reverb exactly you're after. I like a lot of the cheaper, wierder plugin reverbs for effects but I'm also interested in a really rich, high-end sounding reverb to add some final sheen. I haven't liked the plugins I've tried so much for that yet.

.jon · Post by **.jon** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:31 pm

I've got Pristine Space light and selected freebies, and will almost surely go hardware for a real reverb unit. Thanks for pointing out those Lexi and TC units, even though the cost more around here they are still below CSR.

One interesting unit is the Behringer V-Verb, I liked most of the sound demos presented here.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:33 pm

The V-Verb sounds pretty good on paper. I'll have to go look for some demos.

Edit: this forum looks interesting for lower-end studio hardware like this http://www.gearslutz.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=44

Also, it looks like if you're willing to spend closer to $500 there are some very nice hardware verbs available. That's about twice the price of the Wizoo and Arts Acoustic, and $200 more than CSR, but I'm guessing something like the Kurzweil Rumour stands up pretty well to any software reverb.

funkadil · Post by **funkadil** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:52 pm

What is it about hardware verbs that make it impossible to emulate in software? I guess some kinds of analog spring verbs and stuff wouldn't be the same, are these old sought after expensive hardware units analog circuitry? Or are they dsp? I like aieresverb, thats a fun little effect. Sounds very pretty even though its more of a fancy delay effect than a reverb.

Kiwburger · Post by **Kiwburger** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:30 pm

I have a truckload of VST reverbs - good stuff, like AAR, R66 etc. I found so many top pro's talking about the Kurzweil KSP8, and since I liked the sound of the convolution samples, I bought a Rumour (the cheap version with the same algorithmns). The Kurzweil sounds fairly good, made most of my plugins redundant.

But i'm trialling a Behringer V-verb (and i've been staunchly anti-Behringer for a long time). All I can say is wow ... Behringer have excelled themselves, for a ridiculously cheap price. This thing goes head-for-head with the best reverbs of all time.

People (like me) knock Behringer for making cheap shoddy Chinese crap. But everyone these days is making cheap shoddy chinese crap, and charging more for it.

Comparing the Kurzweil Rumour with the Behringer V-verb:

The Rumour was twice the price (NZ$1200 vs NZ$600)
The Rumour is half as good (only 48khz vs 96khz, only two channels, vs four).
The Rumour has 1/4" TRS and RCA - the V-verb has XLRs for audio and digital (and 1/4" for unbalanced). This is a professional box aimed at professionals.

The sound is amazing - much smoother than the Rumour. The A/D/A isn't quite as hot - the Rumour converters are probably superior, but if you use digital it doesn't matter.

My two main gripes about the V-verb are:

s/pdif is optical. It has AES/EBU on XLR - which is great, but I don't yet have a soundcard with AES/EBU. But when I do, i'll be able to run the cables for miles.

Many of the presets use Random modulation. If you listen to the tails, you hear this wierd stepping sound that is just awful. Simply change the modulation from Random to Linear, and you have a nice Lexicon-ish modulated tail.

On a positive - the Rumour has a line lump PSU - the V-verb has built in PSU with standard jug cord IEC connector - cool!

Also - the parameters on the Rumour have weird geeky things that don't make much sense and don't appear to do very much. You can't even adjust the width of the reverb. The V-verb has heaps of sane, sensible parameters. You can adjust the width of the ER, and the width of the Reverb, for example.

The V-verb is just so well designed - you can't say Behringer copied anyone (except perhaps Lexicon and EMT and TC). The ER's are the most exciting ER's i've played with in a long time - very musical. They say the modeled them on famous halls etc, and some idiots think they used convolution. Not so - they are just well timed delays, but they probably studied some good impulses.

I have said some pretty harsh things about Behringer publicly, and now I have to eat my hat.

And no fking dongle ...!

(And as far as build quality goes - my Rumour has developed a fault in the LCD. When the room temperature is cold, some of the digits don't display). The V-verb has a nice display.

I read a magazine review that trashed the V-verb because it didn't have an adjustable LCD contrast. Well, it's got adjustable contrast (maybe they updated it since).

Time to give Behringer credit where credit is due.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:39 pm

The V-Verb is a pretty amazing deal. Seems easy to find a new one on ebay for $150 or so, which puts it well under the cost of any of the better software reverbs, by quite a margin in most cases. For that price you get two independent reverb processors, digital i/o, and no cpu hit. Sound on sound gives it good marks, particularly for larger spaces. Hmmm...

sonicfire · Post by **sonicfire** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:42 pm

"I read a magazine review that trashed the V-verb because it didn't have an adjustable LCD contrast. Well, it's got adjustable contrast (maybe they updated it since). "

What magazine is that???

Kiwburger · Post by **Kiwburger** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:43 pm

I think this highlights how fking greedy some software developers have got ... screw them.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:45 pm

Yes V-Verb is realy nice. You can read and hear more examples here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 21&start=0
I started this thread with intention to make something useful but it turned to hijacked thread. Check it anyway. Files will be online but not for long time.

Cheers!

Kiwburger · Post by **Kiwburger** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:45 pm

sonicfire wrote:"I read a magazine review that trashed the V-verb because it didn't have an adjustable LCD contrast. Well, it's got adjustable contrast (maybe they updated it since). "

What magazine is that???

It was www.musictechmag.co.uk - ok, so now I see it is a review from 2004. So shoot me.

Since you are so concerned about it, I suppose you have a financial interest in Behringer? Can't you see I'm actually saying good things about it?

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:50 pm

Kiwburger wrote:I think this highlights how fking greedy some software developers have got ... screw them.

Name some names.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:52 pm

Let's not turn this into a developer witch hunt. I'm just a little surprised at how much hardware you can get for the money some software reverbs cost.

I'll admit I know next to nothing about reverbs so maybe things like CSR or Arts Acoustic are much better than these lower end hardware verbs?

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:57 pm

If I had the chance to relaunch Playa I'd charge £1000.00 a piece and utilise the hardest synchrosoft protection going. I'd advise any developer of any plugin to do the same.
You'll make more money fleecing a few idiots than you ever will trying to play straight with the teeming mass of thieves.

cheap hardware reverbs vs software