KVR Audio

zai · Post by **zai** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:11 pm

Thinking back, I was glad to have purchased the "full" version of Live when it was still "affordable". Paying for the upgrade "seems" to not hurt my wallet as much. But for those who are looking at purchasing the "full" version now, there is a "price" to pay.

See if you could find an upgrade path somehow and that should help. Look at the "For Sell" forum here...there are people who are selling their "previous" versions...and then you can upgrade to v.6 if you choose to.

Zai

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:27 pm

I think Ableton ARE remaining true to the original paradigm of the software - i.e. that it is primarily designed by musicians for musicians, and everything is within a mouse click or two for spontaneous use. Version 6 does not (so far as I can see) change that or make it "bloated" in the sense of being more complex and less *instant*.

The only thing that has particularly changed (for the worse) at this point is the price rise

. But it's a great program, and I'll still be sure to upgrade anyway

dgkenney · Post by **dgkenney** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:44 pm

fabi wrote: ymmv

mmdv

Dan

dusted william · Post by **dusted william** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:51 pm

what about groove quantize. don't you guys get sick of the regular swing/shuffle?

dw

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:19 pm

Groove quantise was something I was dearly hoping for, as were a number of live users - basically better quantisationa all around.
Regarding the price - it does seem to be a little pricey now, if one includes operator & sampler.
Comparing it with Sonar for instance, with all that the Sonar package contains......
Hmmmmmm.
Have to say though, I still do like live & will defo uprade - possibly even the boxed version with sample content, depending on the quality of the content & will likely grab sampler, as i'm on the hunt for a replacement for NNXT.
Have to wait & see what the general opinion is.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:22 pm

zai wrote:Thinking back, I was glad to have purchased the "full" version of Live when it was still "affordable". Paying for the upgrade "seems" to not hurt my wallet as much. But for those who are looking at purchasing the "full" version now, there is a "price" to pay.

Hmmm

Full version Live 5 - 469 Euros - download
Full version Live 6 - 469 Euros - download

Same price

Upgrade from Live 4 to Live 5 - 119 Euros - download
Upgrade from Live 5 to Live 6 - 99 Euros - download

price has gone down

Upgrade from version 3 to version 5 - 169 Euros - download
Upgrade from version 3 to version 6 - 149 Euros - download

price has gone down

Upgrade from Live Lite to version 5 - 249 Euros - download
Upgrade from Live Lite to version 6 - 269 Euros - download

price has gone up

The boxed versions have gone up because it includes the EIC which is licensed from someone else and they have to pay for it. In addition, the dollar has fallen in comparison to the euro so the dollar version has gone up. Get used to it cause the U.S. economy is shit and the dollar is going to buy less and less. That is not the fault of the German company.

According to Euros, the overall price trend is down. The discussion of shocking price hikes is overstated.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:47 pm

pdxindy, thanks for those good points, well made.

The reason that the cost of the boxed version is of importance to me personally is that I like to both endorse Live in general (to newcomers who will buy the box), and specifically recommend it to students. Also of course I like to keep up to date myself with the full product (i.e. the boxed version) so that my teaching is up-to-speed with any extra features.

The thing that even more particularly grated for me though is the cost of the *extras* ... my experience with Cakewalk (for example) is that such stuff comes bundled, not as a (possibly somewhat overpriced?) add-on. But there it is.

I'll get over it

. And Ableton does in many ways deserve to move up to the top professional rung of the ladder in terms of cost I guess - Live is unquestionably an absolutely superb product

kovacs · Post by **kovacs** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:10 pm

I've never owned a boxed copy of Live so for me that issue is moot. I fell for Operator simply because it felt like I had to own it, but I'm not going to get the Sampler nor the extra content - my harddrive is already creaking at the seams due to samples for SampleTank 2XL, Komplete 2, various collections etc etc...

I think the upgrade prices are quite reasonable but I do think the boxed version price will steer many potential customers away from Live. I am thinking about those people who buy everything in-store and are used to browsing print manuals.

I get everything online these days and hardly own a product box anymore.

But I'm speaking as a hobbyist of course, and money does matter.

For a pro user these price changes can hardly be important since the price for Live 6 including all the bells and whistles is not insanely high anyway.

Sleepwalker · Post by **Sleepwalker** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:30 pm

headquest wrote:And Ableton does in many ways deserve to move up to the top professional rung of the ladder in terms of cost I guess

err, what? I agree in most things you say headquest, but this I dont. Paying as much as you have to for Cubase sx or Logic now is crazy. Increase Lives cost, to get on level with that is even more crazy. But I guess it is a marked strategy, like when Oklay shades doubled theyr cost in early 90ties, and sold much more!

How much you pay for a product shouldnt have anything to do with being professional! Rather if they decrease it, theyd have my atention, as well as being tempting for probable switchers.

To get on level with the upper pros, it would need a lot of work on the midi editor, and in the aranger! Maybe that will happen in version 7 or 8. But to compare it now? Hell no!

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:30 pm

I wonder if making the EIC stuff a mandatory part of the boxed version and jacking the price $100 for it is such a good move. I'm sure a lot of people still do buy the boxed version and I wonder how many of them are going to consider this worth the extra $100. They obviously know their customer demographic better than I do but I wouldn't be surprised if this is something a lot of potential new customers will balk at.

stale bread · Post by **stale bread** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:15 am

slicing, put in slicing and i'll pay anything

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:26 am

stale bread wrote:slicing, put in slicing and i'll pay anything

Sorry - the sight of a member going by the name of 'stale bread' begging for 'slicing' had me in giggles for a minute there.
No offence intended - it brightend up my day there for a minute.

stale bread · Post by **stale bread** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:53 am

christianmusicmaker · Post by **christianmusicmaker** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:46 am

kuniklo wrote:
There's a pattern here:

1. Small upstart company introduces new music making tool. it doesn't do everything the big packages do but it makes some of the common tasks a lot simpler and maybe adds a couple of new & interesting twists. The developers are eager to interact with the small but zealous user community that flocks to the new tool out of frustration with the complexity of their old tools and the perceived indifference and arrogance of its developer.

2. User requests start pouring in becaused people want to use the new tool for everything because it's so simple and fun and easy to use but is just missing feature X to finally replace all their old tool.

3. Developers obligingly respond to user requests. New features are added a breakneck pace. Everybody is happy for the first few versions and brags about how responsive and user-oriented the developer is.

4. Gradually the user base grows and it becomes more and more difficult for the developer to respond personally to all the user requests and maintain the old development schedule. Response times suffer and a few people start to grumble that the developer doesn't care the way they used to.

5. With each new version an increasingly large fraction of the userbase is disappointed that the developers ignored their personal favorite request. An equally large group is angry that a bunch of features they don't care about were implemented and that the essential simplicity of the tool is being lost.

6. Little by little, the new tool begins to bloat into the bad old tool it replaced as new feature after new feature is added, often in an awkward way because the over-simplicity of the original architecture didn't really allow for major new feature Y.

7. Disenchanted users start looking for some new shiny tool without all the complexity of the new old tool and with a developer that "really cares" about users and user requests. Go to step 1.

Tracktion, Live, EnergyXT etc etc will one day be the Cubases and Logics of the world and some new upstart will take their place. Just pick the point on the cycle where you can actually get some work done and live with it.

Very interesting analysis Kunilko. How many times have we seen this cycle repeat itself I wonder. It will be interesting to see if Justin can avoid a similar problem with Reaper. With the development currently zipping away into the distance Reaper may also find itself in a similar situation.

I guess you really do have to simply pick a point on the cycle and move on IMHO. Needs differ from person to person but those 7 points are pretty accurate.

christianmusicmaker · Post by **christianmusicmaker** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:05 am

headquest wrote: Whether it's greed, necessity, or a genuine desire to reposition Live in the market, the implications of Ableton's price hike are hard to simply ignore.

Felling better after the OP?

My take on Live 6...

Some very nice new features but the price is creeping north while VFM is not following the same path. Great app but no usage of Ableton instruments outside of Live is a big negative for me. Especially considering the price of Sampler and Operator.

There are plenty of big hitters in Operators price range and equally in Samplers price range.

I remember and article in Sound on Sound discussing the sale of Steinberg to Pinnacle. Many were surprised but behind all the marketing hype and front pages many software companies are not *that* big.

I get the feeling that Ableton cannot really compete price wise with the likes of more established players like Cakewalk which I think is perfectly realistic.

Project 5 is cheaper than Live 5 but similar enough IMHO to make the Live + Sampler deal in particular seem very pricey indeed, especially when you throw in Operator as well. Dimension is bundled with P5v.2 as is PSYN II which is at least Operators equal if not better IMHO.

I don't think the price hike is greed somehow I think they just cannot afford to compete with FL and P5 on price.

As to which is better out of the three well that debate could go on for ages, it just depends who you talk to, but Live6 is becoming a bit pricey. I may upgrade but need to see what deals they offer first.

I think features are playing less and less of a part in the decision making process for DAWS as many similar features are found in most of the hosts currently available. But the deal breaker now could be price.