Thinking of selling my UAD and my Powercore PCI, am i crazy?

[mike goodwin]

I have owned both of these cards for a couple of years and have had a love hate relationship with them. I love the way the UAD software sounds but am totally sick and tired of dealing with hardware restrictions, hardware conflicts, and the latency that comes with all DSP cards. As for the Powercore card it is pretty much just a reverb unit to me. I only own the element software package so there are many good plugins that I don’t own for it but the same applies. I own a RME multiface and always have to run at least 512 sample buffer when getting any use out of either of these DSP cards and when I don’t run them I can run at 128 samples on my current computer. This did not bug me at first but playing stuff in live more and more I start to feel it. I have just started looking around at using hardware reverb again as well as other software. There is so much out there but it seems even more expensive to get software that is has no DSP backing than the plugins that UAD sell. The prices seem roughly on par with TC electronic stuff but again have no hardware support. I have a hard time accepting that but I guess that is just the way it goes. Is one stuck with Waves ssl copies and PSP and the like for good sound outside of the DSP world? I am familiar with some of the smaller popular companies like Voxengo and kjeherus but I don’t have that same instant "WOW" feeling that I usually get when I pull up my UAD 1176. Is it just in my head? Am I just sucked into the marketing hype?

Any thoughts from the forum?

[sounddesigner]

Wich Voxengo's have you tried? Have you tried Marquis and Soniformer? I like these a little better then Uad-1 compressors. But it may boil down to personal taste.

[kritikon]

I own a RME multiface and always have to run at least 512 sample buffer when getting any use out of either of these DSP cards and when I don't run them I can run at 128 samples on my current computer. This did not bug me at first but playing stuff in live more and more I start to feel it.

I'm not sure why playing things in live is such a restriction. Surely you can just not run the UAD and lower the buffer for the times you play in live? That's exactly what I do on my own setup when I want to play in live. Of course, I don't know how the RME cards work...personally I use an Aardvark, so I can simply lower the buffer and play in without having to reboot or anything, then raise it again afterwards to free up CPU for mixing and FX etc. Does the RME make you reboot to accept buffer settings changes? If that's the case, then I can see how it becomes a pain in the arse. If not, then it's simply a matter of creating a new habit of changing your buffer before playing live. It's not cramped my style at all.

And if it means getting rid of the UAD, I think it's jumping the gun on a whim. You'll struggle to get that type of character on many other native plugins. Urs springa to mind - not cheap, and I don't actually know what his comps sound like, although the Eqs are well thought of. Kjaerhus do some excellent comps and limiters...but not really in the oozing-character style of some of the UAD plugins. They're very good - I recommend Kjaerhus wholeheartedly, but I don't put them in the same category (in terms of sound style) as UAD ones. There's no reason you shouldn't use both equally, but I wouldn't presume to say you can replace an LA2A or Fairchild with a GCO or MPL - they just don't sound the same at all.

You mention h/w....if you're prepared to pay the price, then there sure is a wide choice of character comps and limiters etc...but unless you buy something contemporary with digital in/outs (and can you think of a single character comp you'd want that has that feature?) then you still have the problem of latency in that you have to go D/A -> A/D to get the whole thing out then back in. The problem is the same.

I am familiar with some of the smaller popular companies like Voxengo and kjeherus but I don't have that same instant "WOW" feeling that I usually get when I pull up my UAD 1176. Is it just in my head? Am I just sucked into the marketing hype?

Well...you just answered your own question. Voxengo and Kjaerhus and PSP all have their own flavour, and definitely have quality...but they don't make you go "wow" when you hear them. Which means the sound character you prefer is in the UAD ones. I'm not slagging them at all. I personally swear by Kjaerhus...but they're to my personal taste is all. And it still doesn't stop me planning for my UAD purchase soon. I'll use both...but having Kjaerhus and some other tasty native plugins still doesn't sway my hand. None of the native plugins I have offer what some of the UAD plugins offer, simply because they each have their own distinctive character. I simply haven't heard anything resembling the 1176 on UAD patform.

As an aside...I was recently asking about the Focusrite LiquidMix. It's convolution based and has impulses of 1176s, La2As, LA3As, Pultecs etc etc galore. And from sources I trust, the answers came back that they're good, but don't do it quite like the UAD plugins. I'll still demo one (you always ultimately have to make up your own mind...) but I certainly won't jump in and buy one unheard now. AND....it's presently Firewire only and Mac only, and has latency (although less than the UAD apparently). Same problem.


Latency shouldn't be an issue. Just learn to work in an ever-so-slightly different way. You don't have to run compressors and Eqs and limiters when you're at the ideas stage and playing in instruments and riffs. Turn 'em off for a little while and turn 'em back on when you actually need them.

At least give that a try. If you get rid of the UAD and TC, I suspect you'll soon regret it, because at present there is a very limited choice of plugins of that flavour and quality...there certainly are one or two, but not very many. H/w is alot more expensive and doesn't solve latency. (Although I don't either want to put you off the h/w route...I like the hands-on aspect of h/w, and I still use some of my old h/w and would never get rid of them - at least not until they die a respected death.) e.g. I can't get any single s/w plugin I've ever tried to overdrive and distort like a certain VCA comp I use if I abuse the inputs. And supposedly, VCA should be more easy to emulate in s/w than optical or tube comps...but you know well what digital distortion sounds like... .


Only you know the answer...but you will struggle to replace some of the UAD plugins, of that I am sure. Maybe in 2 or 3 years, it will change....

[Madness]

I would try some of the better Freebies at the ideas stage!!

And stick to your DSP Cards during Mixing and Mastering!!

Then once Intel and AMD release their QUAD Core CPU's next year along with the DAW Hosts fully supporting Multi-CPUS' you could consider moving over to a Zero Latency setup.

[mike goodwin]

thanks for the post kritikon, the thing is that I am in a situation where it looks like I am going to have to replace my motherboard for one that is not a VIA chipset. It is a very very very long and boring story why but it is the case. Thus pushing out the UAD right away. It sucks but the UAD cards just dont like other chipsets. So I may keep the Powercore just because I do like the reverbs on it but even if I wanted to it seems that the uad is history.

As for the Voxengo, I just downloaded the demo for the marquis and it is very nice sounding but I cant say that I find it easy to get results from it. I am going to spend more time with it tomorrow. As for the soniformer, holly crap that thing is insane! It is also a total cpu killer. what can you do?

ok im way to sleepy

night

[erminardi]

If U sell your DSP cards you're crazy
DSP boards add to your work more power and (very very important, a lot of people forget this!) a CLEANER signal. Almost all VST alter the original signal... in a professional studio with the right accurate monitors and measurement U can ear this.
I think that this is because native enviroment needs a lot of compromises between sound quality and CPU usage, DSP are designed, instead, for exclusive purpose and without any compromise. It says that one DSP plugin ported in native code will requires almost all the power of a modern CPU!
I have both UAD, PoCo (in one PC with Cubase SX 3) and a new Focusrite liquidmix (in a MAC with Protools LE).
I've uninstalled almost all old native VST!!!
In protools LE (in particular) I've noticed that the usage of Liquid Mix leave a more intellegible signal than his native RTAS.
Howewer this is an high end discussion, a lot of people that uses his host for fun don't care for it.

If U need less delay in your live sets I suggest to you a Creamware system (in a rack PC) that is the best chioce for his hi quality (all of theese EFX are used by pro consolle like Fairlight Dream), stability and very low latency (almost 3ms!).
You can get a lot of well sounding effects and state of art synths (shure better than any VST/VSTi)
Check some MP3 demos of Minimax or Pro-12!!!
The I/O converter of Scope are amazing!!!

My 4 cents

ps. sorry for my sick english...

[DevonB]

thanks for the post kritikon, the thing is that I am in a situation where it looks like I am going to have to replace my motherboard for one that is not a VIA chipset. It sucks but the UAD cards just dont like other chipsets.

Only like VIA? Bullshit. Who's feeding you that line of crap? I've had mine on an Intel chipset and an NVidia Nforce3 Ultra chipset without issue.

Devon

[whyterabbyt]

DSP boards add to your work... a CLEANER signal. Almost all VST alter the original signal...

What utter bollocks. Any processing alters a signal, whether its performed on a native processor or a DSP.

I'd love to hear an explanation for 'adding' cleanness. Go on, tell us all about fixed-point processing being whiter than white, and floating-point-to-fixed-point-to-floating-point math conversions killing 99% of all germs dead.

[respirator]

Erminardi: Besides that the quality of the plugs on the dsp cards and the native vsts being different, that's absolutely nonsense. There's no improvement in sound quality by using dsp cards over native vsts.

I use powercore myself. Initially to get more processing power, but with my new laptop (Centrino Core Duo 2Ghz) I only use it because of the plugs (verb and filtroid). I honestly think that DSP-solutions is a thing of the past as computers are getting powerful enough to do it themselfes. I now see my Powercore (PCI and firewire) as expensive dongles for some plugins I can't very well live without.

Look perhaps on some of the more expensive native plugs (URS are getting a lot of praise) as well as those mentioned.

Hardware would hardly get you any lower latency as you would have to make a D/A - A/D roundtrip (unless you're talking digital hardware, which IMO is even more restricted than DSPs).

[johnnytluxury]

Youd be crazy if you sold me yo shit for $200 US. Not stupid, mind you, but crazy.....

[defjamm]

As for the Voxengo, I just downloaded the demo for the marquis and it is very nice sounding but I cant say that I find it easy to get results from it. I am going to spend more time with it tomorrow. As for the soniformer, holly crap that thing is insane! It is also a total cpu killer. what can you do?

if you want good results fast than keep your uad. there is not much else where you can get this results that fast. you can get something nice with voxengo, but it will take more time and you will have to learn them in and out(and there are a lot of controls to learn). imho.

[aMUSEd]

If U need less delay in your live sets I suggest to you a Creamware system (in a rack PC) that is the best chioce for his hi quality (all of theese EFX are used by pro consolle like Fairlight Dream), stability and very low latency (almost 3ms!).
You can get a lot of well sounding effects and state of art synths (shure better than any VST/VSTi)
Check some MP3 demos of Minimax or Pro-12!!!
The I/O converter of Scope are amazing!!!

I was going to suggest the same. The main reason I've not gone for Poco and UAD is the latency - I really like to play stuff in realtime. The problem is the paradigm these two DSP solutions have adopted seems to have been to try and fit themselves inside the ASIO environment which means inevitably living with some latency and the other limitations mentioned. On the other hand Creamware have adopted an opposite paradigm which is to create a virtually realtime audio environment (I can get down to a glitchfree 1ms actually if I'm just running DSP powered stuff without ASIO) and then provide the means to "plugin" other audio components be they ASIO, MIDI, DX based or external hardware (for which they even provide a way to wrap a hardware FX unit or synth as a Scope plugin). Plus you can record inside Scope using a virtual DAT emulating 32 bit integer 8 track recorder (which is the best quality of any audio recorder - even at least as good as if not better than SAWStudio).

The system is very flexible - you can if you want even opt for a more POCO/UAD like approach as 90% or more of Creamware plugins can also work as perfectly good DSP powered VST/i's (in what is called XTC mode) but then you are back to the limitations of latency etc.

[Amberience]

If U sell your DSP cards you're crazy
DSP boards add to your work more power and (very very important, a lot of people forget this!) a CLEANER signal. Almost all VST alter the original signal... in a professional studio with the right accurate monitors and measurement U can ear this.
I think that this is because native enviroment needs a lot of compromises between sound quality and CPU usage, DSP are designed, instead, for exclusive purpose and without any compromise. It says that one DSP plugin ported in native code will requires almost all the power of a modern CPU!
I have both UAD, PoCo (in one PC with Cubase SX 3) and a new Focusrite liquidmix (in a MAC with Protools LE).
I've uninstalled almost all old native VST!!!
In protools LE (in particular) I've noticed that the usage of Liquid Mix leave a more intellegible signal than his native RTAS.
Howewer this is an high end discussion, a lot of people that uses his host for fun don't care for it.

If U need less delay in your live sets I suggest to you a Creamware system (in a rack PC) that is the best chioce for his hi quality (all of theese EFX are used by pro consolle like Fairlight Dream), stability and very low latency (almost 3ms!).
You can get a lot of well sounding effects and state of art synths (shure better than any VST/VSTi)
Check some MP3 demos of Minimax or Pro-12!!!
The I/O converter of Scope are amazing!!!

My 4 cents

ps. sorry for my sick english...

UTTER FLAP DRIVEL

[4damind]

Its no DSP-Card its a hardware-dongle I love my UAD! But the DSP-power is very limited, so I have a big bag full of VSTs from Kjaerhus,Voxengo and others. I have no problems to run my DAW with 128 samples together with the UAD, so I cannot say that there is a general problem with DSP-Cards. In my opinion its a problem with the DAW and not optimized hardware...

Most people think, that buying a DSP-card is the one and only solution for mixing and mastering. I think thats wrong! You buy some more (high quality) plugins but with a hardware-dongle, thats all!

[snooky]

If U sell your DSP cards you're crazy
DSP boards add to your work more power and (very very important, a lot of people forget this!) a CLEANER signal. Almost all VST alter the original signal... in a professional studio with the right accurate monitors and measurement U can ear this.
I think that this is because native enviroment needs a lot of compromises between sound quality and CPU usage, DSP are designed, instead, for exclusive purpose and without any compromise. It says that one DSP plugin ported in native code will requires almost all the power of a modern CPU!
I have both UAD, PoCo (in one PC with Cubase SX 3) and a new Focusrite liquidmix (in a MAC with Protools LE).
I've uninstalled almost all old native VST!!!
In protools LE (in particular) I've noticed that the usage of Liquid Mix leave a more intellegible signal than his native RTAS.
Howewer this is an high end discussion, a lot of people that uses his host for fun don't care for it.

If U need less delay in your live sets I suggest to you a Creamware system (in a rack PC) that is the best chioce for his hi quality (all of theese EFX are used by pro consolle like Fairlight Dream), stability and very low latency (almost 3ms!).
You can get a lot of well sounding effects and state of art synths (shure better than any VST/VSTi)
Check some MP3 demos of Minimax or Pro-12!!!
The I/O converter of Scope are amazing!!!

My 4 cents

ps. sorry for my sick english...

UTTER FLAP DRIVEL

God damn it erminardi, you're just delusional DELUXE!!

typical fanboi drivel.

GO AWAY!!! GAAHAHAHAHAHAH - the total wankery that goes on here, from idiotic reverb comparisons to "voodoo magic" DSP card nonsense.