Live 6

[headquest]

And Ableton does in many ways deserve to move up to the top professional rung of the ladder in terms of cost I guess

err, what? I agree in most things you say headquest, but this I dont.

Fair enough Sleepwalker - I agree with those points. I was just trying to put a more positive spin on the situation

Seriously though, I suspect that Ableton may be wishing to move Live away from comparissons with Acid/P5 and FL Studio on the grounds that they - (perhaps rather pompously?) - consider it to have a more elite professional market ... and not be a "toy"...<ouch>. I'm sure they would be quicker to welcome comparissons with the likes of PT-MP/LE, Sonar and Motu DP (although I still agree with you that even that is possibly misguided in terms of features/vfm).

A similar comparisson might be Celemony's Melodynne - again very expensive in terms of the actual features it offers, but "outside the box" and original in concept. It's about putting a price tag on the originality, perhaps.

Damn it - bottom line is I think they have gone and priced the box too high, and as for the synths... .

But... as pdxindy and others have said, there's always the Live Lite bundles as a cheap way in for newcomers. I hope they leave that intact.

[headquest]

Felling better after the OP?

Hey! Yeah, the eye is still very sore, but I'm on the mend. Don't have full vision back yet, but hopefully will do soon. Cheers for asking (etc).

Great app but no usage of Ableton instruments outside of Live is a big negative for me. Especially considering the price of Sampler and Operator.

The silver lining to that cloud is that they have improved Rewire so that you can now sequence those instruments directly from Sonar/etc (remember the problems I had trying to work this out last autumn!! - it was all Ableton's fault after all... but now fixed).

There are plenty of big hitters in Operators price range and equally in Samplers price range.

Absolutely. Unless they intended to include these instruments within the core program, as they did with Impulse and Simpler in version 4, I really don't see why they are spending time developing them . I'm surely not the only one who thinks this just looks (at worst) like a cynical money-spinner.

I remember and article in Sound on Sound discussing the sale of Steinberg to Pinnacle. Many were surprised but behind all the marketing hype and front pages many software companies are not *that* big. I get the feeling that Ableton cannot really compete price wise with the likes of more established players like Cakewalk which I think is perfectly realistic.

I think they are perhaps aspiring to grow too big too quickly...?

Project 5 is cheaper than Live 5 but similar enough IMHO to make the Live + Sampler deal in particular seem very pricey indeed, especially when you throw in Operator as well.

P5 is actually less than half the price of Live now (UK street prices). I do think that might be a problem for Live in terms of attracting new customers. In the meantime, they will no doubt compensate by continuing to charge their existing customers more and more in order to make their business targets work. Hmmm...

Dimension is bundled with P5v.2 as is PSYN II which is at least Operators equal if not better IMHO.

I don't agree on that one, but its perhaps to do with spending more time learning PSYNII. I really don't like that synth very much though... Operator I do like

I don't think the price hike is greed somehow I think they just cannot afford to compete with FL and P5 on price.

Not to do with the different business attitudes/psychologies of Americans/Belgians/Germans then?

As to which is better out of the three well that debate could go on for ages, it just depends who you talk to, but Live6 is becoming a bit pricey. I may upgrade but need to see what deals they offer first.

What ever do you mean? Live is clearly the best!!!

I think features are playing less and less of a part in the decision making process for DAWS as many similar features are found in most of the hosts currently available. But the deal breaker now could be price.

True enough. Cheers!

[headquest]

I wonder if making the EIC stuff a mandatory part of the boxed version and jacking the price $100 for it is such a good move. I'm sure a lot of people still do buy the boxed version and I wonder how many of them are going to consider this worth the extra $100. They obviously know their customer demographic better than I do but I wouldn't be surprised if this is something a lot of potential new customers will balk at.

The cost of the box was obviously always higher than the download upgrade - $30 I think. For that $30 you got the fancy packaging, paper manual, sample content CD (Big Fish Audio, etc) and some nice stickers . Obviously there are also administrative costs in there. So overall that was a good deal.

At present I am not sure if the box continues to include the Big Fish Audio samples or not. Also whether Ableton plan to continue pushing the "Live Pack" concept that they made such an integral feature in their marketing of Live 5 last autumn

The extra $70 for the EIC seems to only buy you a few actual sample instruments: just 39 are listed. They also suggest that they hope to seel us MORE of this stuff seperately - yet another charge coming our way!!:

An initial set of multi-sampled instruments will ship free with Live 6 with additional Expansion Sound Sets to be released in the near future.

Leaving aside the appearance that they are misleading in this statement ("free"??!! ) it is clear there is a bigger business plan here...

[headquest]

PS: although the EIC can be played with Simpler, you actually need to buy Sampler to edit them according to an alpha tester on the Abes forum.

[headquest]

I've asked about the EIC here, as it seems contradictory and confusing...:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 2d00daf216

Also please vote in my poll

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42734

[christianmusicmaker]

Hey! Yeah, the eye is still very sore, but I'm on the mend. Don't have full vision back yet, but hopefully will do soon. Cheers for asking (etc).

I gathered you were recovering well posting here...and guessed that Live6 certainly would get you out of bed

The silver lining to that cloud is that they have improved Rewire so that you can now sequence those instruments directly from Sonar/etc (remember the problems I had trying to work this out last autumn!! - it was all Ableton's fault after all... but now fixed).

That is a nice addition.

I think they are perhaps aspiring to grow too big too quickly...?

It may simply be sink or swim.

P5 is actually less than half the price of Live now (UK street prices). I do think that might be a problem for Live in terms of attracting new customers. In the meantime, they will no doubt compensate by continuing to charge their existing customers more and more in order to make their business targets work. Hmmm...

If that is the case then it's a slippery slope for the Abes as in a years time Live could look very pricey indeed compared to similar packages.

Headquest..., as an S5 user and Live 5 user what aspects of Live 5 would you like to see in S5 and vice versa as your list may be very long ...what key 3 - 5 features would you like to see in future versions of Live or Sonar that might enable to you use just one of them?

[diverdee]

The EIC seems like a 'taster' set of samples from sonivox, similar to some of teh isntruments that are availabel when one buys Kontakt for instance.
Seen as it is only available with the boxed set, which now costs $70 dollars more than previously & that nothing else new seems to be included in the boxed set it does appear that this 'free' set of example sonivox sample does indeed actually cost $70.
That's the kind of marketing doublespeak that will do nothing for Abletons reputation.
Just my opinion of course.
Hoffman2k's response regarding the EIC & sonivox being different is misleading, the 'free' EIC is made by sonivox (sonic implants) who are obviously going to make more sample sets for the sampler.
Stating that one 'pays more for teh box because it contains the EIC' is a strange response, as the EIC then isn't free at all is it?

[headquest]

Yes, it's confusing at best. At worst... well, "marketing doublespeak" is the polite way of putting it

[headquest]

Headquest..., as an S5 user and Live 5 user what aspects of Live 5 would you like to see in S5 and vice versa as your list may be very long ...what key 3 - 5 features would you like to see in future versions of Live or Sonar that might enable to you use just one of them?

Now you have me thinking!

SONAR: I don't think it could happen. Live's Session View and creative composition and arrangment tools could not so far as I can see be reproduced in Sonar without breaking it.

The only way I could therefore give up Live for Sonar is not if Cakewalk added stuff to Sonar, but if Ableton really dropped the ball with Live, either by somehow trashing the programme or by pricing it out of the market. Time will obviously tell on that one...

ABLETON: could very easily replace Sonar in fact. Having Sonar remains something of a luxury, and I use Live almost exclusively. But Sonar has some features I prefer for linear audio recording, GM authoring, and some lovely plugs (the effects, mostly). So if Ableton enhanced Live in those areas that would seal it.

[christianmusicmaker]

Headquest..., as an S5 user and Live 5 user what aspects of Live 5 would you like to see in S5 and vice versa as your list may be very long ...what key 3 - 5 features would you like to see in future versions of Live or Sonar that might enable to you use just one of them?

Now you have me thinking!

SONAR: I don't think it could happen. Live's Session View and creative composition and arrangment tools could not so far as I can see be reproduced in Sonar without breaking it.

The only way I could therefore give up Live for Sonar is not if Cakewalk added stuff to Sonar, but if Ableton really dropped the ball with Live, either by somehow trashing the programme or by pricing it out of the market. Time will obviously tell on that one...

ABLETON: could very easily replace Sonar in fact. Having Sonar remains something of a luxury, and I use Live almost exclusively. But Sonar has some features I prefer for linear audio recording, GM authoring, and some lovely plugs (the effects, mostly). So if Ableton enhanced Live in those areas that would seal it.

Interesting thoughts. I think P5 *has* the Cakewalk session view (Groove Matrix) so it's very unlikely to make it into Sonar I guess.

I suppose better FX seems to be one of the main areas for improvement in Live.

Cheers.

[Cosmic Bandito]

What's P5???

[headquest]

Interesting thoughts. I think P5 *has* the Cakewalk session view (Groove Matrix) so it's very unlikely to make it into Sonar I guess.

P5 could grow into a product that could seriously challenge Live now though, especially considering the price.

Funnily enough I just received another email rom Cakewalk offering me the full Project 5 AND Dimension Pro synth together for just £138 . At this point there seems to me to be a growing contrast between the excellent way Cakewalk look after their customers and... oh, you know

I suppose better FX seems to be one of the main areas for improvement in Live.

Cheers.

There's always plugins though. And some of the Ableton effects are great. It will be interesting to compare the new 8band EQ against Kjaerhus GEQ7, etc...

Anyway, I had time now to think of my top 3 - 5 future Live features that wold make Sonar redundant... so here they are (groups, really ):

1) Audio Engine:
* Switch between "gapless" for jamming/stage use, and "Quality" for studio use.
* "Quality" mode to including 64-bit mix engine.
* Render with POW-r 3 or similar quality dithering algorithm.

2) Improved Arrangment View
* Inline MIDI editing in the main timeline, rather than clip properties (only in Arrangment View, obviously).
* Improved automation envelopes including freeform/splines/curves
* Impove the right hand edge menu system for routing in Arrangment View
* If possible larger meters in Arrangement - perhaps horizontal instead of verticle?

3) Clip Editing
* Deeper MIDI editing and more tools
* Single-click to full screen editing from clip properties
* Destructrive audio editing at clip level (would include a different file management system, I know )
* Render in place (although "flatten" possibly is this - but nice to have it at clip level)
* Full VST automation beyond 128 parameters

4) GM Authoring
* Better GM compatibility - e.g. extend the EIC to a full GM set, all multisampled with different articulations, etc
* Import GM files with all 16 tracks created and correct EIC instruments inserted (Sonar can do this using TTS-1)

5) VST hosting when in Rewire slave mode.

Somebody else will of course give a quite different list .

By the way, I think that by Live 8, all of these except (4) will probably be done

[kuniklo]

P5 could grow into a product that could seriously challenge Live now though, especially considering the price.

All the little things they got wrong with the last version of P5 make me think that Cakewalk still doesn't really *get* Live. I suppose they could still get it right eventually though and I'm sure Cake can afford to sell on thinner profit margins than Ableton.

[Cosmic Bandito]

P5 could grow into a product that could seriously challenge Live now though, especially considering the price.

All the little things they got wrong with the last version of P5 make me think that Cakewalk still doesn't really *get* Live. I suppose they could still get it right eventually though and I'm sure Cake can afford to sell on thinner profit margins than Ableton.

It's funny that I think this analogy is correct, but it's like driving an American car vs a German engineered vehicle.

Cakewalk's products are by loose concensus, clunky in design and prone to breakdown, compared to the innovative and robust Ableton Live. Why do you think the biggest button on cakewalk products is the "restart audio engine" button?

To be fair, I think Cubase's take on the "session view" was a loser too.

And I also agree that fixing some workflow niggles and the arrangement view would have been the way to go Live6, so people could finally get rid of Cubase and the like altogether.

Unfortunatly Ableton is going down the "financial decisons" route, but as established here, Live6 will kick ass anyway . It just is a shame, they were so close to filling the void Logic left (for PC) but decided focus on things they could make a little short-term cash with.

And yes, I did have too much coffee this morning...

[christianmusicmaker]

Somebody else will of course give a quite different list .

By the way, I think that by Live 8, all of these except (4) will probably be done

It is actually possible that Ableton may very well have planned to add the features on that list of yours to Live 6, but faced a financial issue...they may very well have known that such features would enhance Live 6, but would not provide much needed additional revenue which development time spent on Sampler now clearly will.

How much revenue and how many people will want it is another matter.

The host market is getting pretty crowded. Phrazor and EXT offer superb sub host features that you can drop into any host now. Neither cost more than £30 right now. Costs at the lower end of the scale are coming down all the time, with feature sets rising.

Ableton might end up with a fantastic cutting edge ultra creative product that is simply beyond the budgets of those that got onboard a few years ago. The host market shifts around so much.

I am still amazed at all the publicity that Cubase got in mags, tutorials e.t.c and yet they were in so much trouble they ended up with two owners in about two years!

Direct Wave was nowhere a year ago but is a seriously good option to Abes Sampler. Maybe Sampler should have come out of the blocks before Operator.

As for plugs, just today Camel audio released a very nice freebie so neither instruments or Fx are the big draw with Live 6 for me, especially if I cannot use the instruments without needing to use Live6.

I think if things were not so competitive Live6 may have been a different application with more of the features you listed but I think they simply had to spend their time developing additional revenue streams, even if it meant ending up with a product that is now narrowly short of Logic 7's price tag with Operator and Sampler included. Not great. But I guess they may simply have had no choice.

If Ableton really do charge for additional packs for Sampler they may struggle a bit. Dimension and Rapture had massive freebie soundsets given away to registered users, about 350 patches each. I went through most of the Dimension pro ones and they are absolutely of superb quality. I would happily pay for that sort of quality. Easily as good as the sounds from Atmosphere or Trilogy (I have both). YMMV but I was very impressed.

The integration of everything though in Live is really, seriously tight. It does feel like one work area.

The pricing of Abletons products sadly seems to be as big a headline as the new features. I think it is a simple reality of a relatively small software company in a very competitive market. I doubt any future packaged deals would reduce the price of their products by *that* much, but lets see.

One of my favourite new features is the detailed meters...finally!

It was interesting to see Ableton attempt to answer Kore and Reason with their new racks and layering options e.t.c