KVR Audio

rcrath · Post by **rcrath** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:06 pm

Hi, Great plugin, thanks for all the work and for making it available to us for free.

I gave the amp section a good run through and really like it. I have a couple of comments/questions/suggestions/requests or whatever. I noticed in one of the preset threads, folks were complaining about "muddy" guitar tones. To my ear, what is going on in the tone is that there is too much emphasis on the fundamental and not enough on the harmonics for a guitar player. This gives a meaty bass sound and makes the low frequencies discernable as notes, which is great for bass guitar but is probably the source of what guitarists are perceiving as "muddiness." I am guessing that the modeling takes place by generating harmonic frequencies. If that is the case, crisper guitar tones might come from being able to tone down the fundamental (i think the subsequent harmonics are probably spot on if this is done). I am not sure if this is the case, but it is my guess.

The second thing is more of a question...what is the principle or goal in the open v. closed configs for the speaker back...i.e., what is it tonally that makes it sound open or closed? The reason I ask is that I struggled to get a good tone out of the open back even though all the "real" amps I've owned have had open backs and I love the tone.....

All this I hope will be taken in the spirit of what I hope is constructive feedback. I really like the plug so far as it is, but think it could be improved to meet the critique that the tone tends toward muddy.

Onward to the synth and the effects section....

Rich Rath
http://way.net/music

guitarzan · Post by **guitarzan** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:31 am

rcrath wrote:...crisper guitar tones might come from being able to tone down the fundamental (i think the subsequent harmonics are probably spot on if this is done). I am not sure if this is the case, but it is my guess.

Hey, that is contructive feedback!! I do hear a certain "boxiness" especially at the higher gain settings. If Fretted Synth does address this, I hope he makes it an adjustable parameter because that "boxiness" is really cool at times! To me, most of the sounds I get out of FreeAmp remind me of combo amps, regardless of the cab selected - but that's fine with me. It's like having every pawnshop prize that exists all in one plug!!

rcrath wrote:...I struggled to get a good tone out of the open back even though all the "real" amps I've owned have had open backs and I love the tone.....

Maybe this is the area that needs some attention. To me "Closed Back" sounds right, and "Open Back" sounds like.... I don't know, no cab?

I love FreeAmp just as it is, though, so I hope an future improvement doesn't take away what is already there. It serves up the greasey and the clean tube combo tones far better than any other sim IMHO.

I recently started messing with the synth expecting to dial in the EH MicroSynth type stuff, which I love, but was VERY suprised! I haven't even tried to get "synthy" stuff yet because this synth section is way more useful than that! It can be subtle enough and it tracks so well that it can be used in regular amp sounds to add really interesting, natural sounding elements.

FrettedSynth · Post by **FrettedSynth** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:42 pm

rcrath wrote: I noticed in one of the preset threads, folks were complaining about "muddy" guitar tones. To my ear, what is going on in the tone is that there is too much emphasis on the fundamental and not enough on the harmonics for a guitar player. This gives a meaty bass sound and makes the low frequencies discernable as notes, which is great for bass guitar but is probably the source of what guitarists are perceiving as "muddiness." I am guessing that the modeling takes place by generating harmonic frequencies. If that is the case, crisper guitar tones might come from being able to tone down the fundamental (i think the subsequent harmonics are probably spot on if this is done). I am not sure if this is the case, but it is my guess.

The second thing is more of a question...what is the principle or goal in the open v. closed configs for the speaker back...i.e., what is it tonally that makes it sound open or closed? The reason I ask is that I struggled to get a good tone out of the open back even though all the "real" amps I've owned have had open backs and I love the tone.....Rich Rath
http://way.net/music

Hello Rich

Thanks for taking the time with FreeAmp

I will for sure look into what you speak of, All the harmonics of the drive\distortion were tuned by ear

never looked at in a frequency response meter

guess its time I take a look for what it is you speak of and see if I can clean them up a bit! my main goal was to get rid of as much nasty stuff as I could? IMHO not all the crap in higher registers is created by aliasing?, started looking into it after listening to a marshall JCM2000 and finding all kinds of really nasty harmonics in the high registers, that in no way could be aliasing because its a tube amp?
So I set out to clean up the harmonics at there source (the distortion generators), because oversampling is not an option in SynthEdit, it is the only way I could make higher notes not produce what most call aliasing in digital distortion? still a work in progress

The Open\Closed back circuit is a poor emulation of true cab response, but with no test equipment (amps) it was a shot in the dark at best

will also take a look at what I did there and see if I can improve it? Thanks for the input in a very constuctive way

Will see what I can do?

@guitarzan - Thanks I'm glad to hear you say the tracking of Guitsyn is working well

Haven't got much for replies about it? Still a few things I'm thinking would improve tracking even more? but good to know its working for others out there

Many changes will come to the synth circuit itself in the future, with this release I was more concerned with making it track.

Thanks all
Fretted Synth

Vectorman · Post by **Vectorman** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:41 am

Just had to stop by for a minute to say what a nice piece of work this is. We were discussing bass amp simulators on Talk Bass a while back and someone mentioned Freeamp 2, so just for the heck of it, I downloaded it. Yesterday I had laid down a bass part with my fretless and wanted to double certain parts with a unison guitar line. Just for kicks, instead of pulling out the guitar, I played the part an octave up on bass and started trying different Freeamp presets on the upper octave track. I liked the results so much, I tracked the higher octave again, and panned the two higher "bass" parts left and right with slightly different Freeamp presets on each. It sounds great, and I doubt anyone who hears the finished song will have any inkling the "guitar" lines were recorded on bass, LOL.

I've ended up doing a few more ersatz guitar lines on the song, exploring the various tonal colors Freeamp offers. What fantastic textural contrasts you can get by layering and staggering different lines using various presets, and I haven't even tried running an actual guitar through it yet. This is one of the most genuinely useful VST tools I've come across in a long time. Well done!

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:54 am

guitarzan wrote:
rcrath wrote:...crisper guitar tones might come from being able to tone down the fundamental (i think the subsequent harmonics are probably spot on if this is done). I am not sure if this is the case, but it is my guess.
Hey, that is contructive feedback!! I do hear a certain "boxiness" especially at the higher gain settings. If Fretted Synth does address this, I hope he makes it an adjustable parameter because that "boxiness" is really cool at times! To me, most of the sounds I get out of FreeAmp remind me of combo amps, regardless of the cab selected - but that's fine with me. It's like having every pawnshop prize that exists all in one plug!!.

I have heard many a combo amp sound totally NOT boxy. there is a huge boxiness at higher gain settings, but this has already been proven. too bad too, cause freeamp has some nice responsivenes to it.

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:54 am

now i could REALLY picture this sim being good for bass.

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:56 am

rcrath wrote:Hi, Great plugin, thanks for all the work and for making it available to us for free. I gave the amp section a good run through and really like it. I have a couple of comments/questions/suggestions/requests or whatever. I noticed in one of the preset threads, folks were complaining about "muddy" guitar tones. To my ear, what is going on in the tone is that there is too much emphasis on the fundamental and not enough on the harmonics for a guitar player. This gives a meaty bass sound and makes the low frequencies discernable as notes, which is great for bass guitar but is probably the source of what guitarists are perceiving as "muddiness." I am guessing that the modeling takes place by generating harmonic frequencies. If that is the case, crisper guitar tones might come from being able to tone down the fundamental (i think the subsequent harmonics are probably spot on if this is done). I am not sure if this is the case, but it is my guess.

The second thing is more of a question...what is the principle or goal in the open v. closed configs for the speaker back...i.e., what is it tonally that makes it sound open or closed? The reason I ask is that I struggled to get a good tone out of the open back even though all the "real" amps I've owned have had open backs and I love the tone.....

All this I hope will be taken in the spirit of what I hope is constructive feedback. I really like the plug so far as it is, but think it could be improved to meet the critique that the tone tends toward muddy.

Onward to the synth and the effects section....

Rich Rath
http://way.net/music

excellent comments, totally right

guitarzan · Post by **guitarzan** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:04 am

Jason Brian Merrill wrote:I have heard many a combo amp sound totally NOT boxy.

Some do, some don't. The greasey little nicotine stained late 40's - early 50's ones always sound boxy, and they always sound great!!

FWIW, I don't think FreeAmp always sounds boxy - not at all on cleaner settings. At higher gain it just happens to turn into the meanest, greasiest little blues combo ever, that's all!!

I'm all for adding more versatility, but I would just hate to see FreeAmp refined to the point where it had nothing unique left in it, like some of the commercial offerings.

FrettedSynth · Post by **FrettedSynth** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:16 pm

[quote="Jason Brian Merrill
I have heard many a combo amp sound totally NOT boxy. there is a huge boxiness at higher gain settings, but this has already been proven. too bad too, cause freeamp has some nice responsivenes to it.
now i could REALLY picture this sim being good for bass.[/quote]

Nah! not too bad at all

The rest of the tones will come with time, of that I have no doubt in my mind at all

Have a few ideas to improve its response also, to many things to do not enough time in a day, whats a man going to do? Keep smiling

To help with preset compatability, FreeAmp2 will remain as is! lets see what can we name the next all new version?

BTW played bass for thirty years

Guess it really shows in FreeAmps tone

Peace,
Fretted Synth

Newbie Brad · Post by **Newbie Brad** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:14 pm

Been playing it this afternoon, getting to know 2.0. BTW could you make the Echo 2005 be a stereo input machine? That would be very nice!

alma is a fish · Post by **alma is a fish** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:19 am

just wanna add my thanks for this plug. made me break out the 6 string for the last several days now. thanks for your effort Ive realy been enjoying it.

FrettedSynth · Post by **FrettedSynth** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:05 pm

Newbie Brad wrote:Been playing it this afternoon, getting to know 2.0. BTW could you make the Echo 2005 be a stereo input machine? That would be very nice!

Glad you like the echo, yep! could be made as a stereo input, was not too sure if anyone would use it as there are soooo many delay plugins out there? (thats why I just put it on the site with no announcement) but to me it is a really easy to use nice sounding echo (only one I use recent). If there is interest in a update perhaps we could talk Rick (grymmjack) into making a proper UI for it? then it would also look all pretty

let me know?

Thanks all
Fretted Synth

Newbie Brad · Post by **Newbie Brad** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:15 pm

Yes please in stereo please! Then I can easily bring other stereo samples or stereo recordings etc into the same stereo echo treatments as whatever I make in FreeAmp 2.0 without summing inputs. Grymmjack gui would of course be icing.

asseca · Post by **asseca** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:19 pm

Newbie Brad wrote:Yes please in stereo please! Then I can easily bring other stereo samples or stereo recordings etc into the same stereo echo treatments as whatever I make in FreeAmp 2.0 without summing inputs. Grymmjack gui would of course be icing.

+1

FrettedSynth · Post by **FrettedSynth** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:42 pm

guitarzan wrote: I'm all for adding more versatility, but I would just hate to see FreeAmp refined to the point where it had nothing unique left in it, like some of the commercial offerings.

Thanks! IMHO FreeAmp2 "as is" is great at giving a raw tone to a direct line guitar

That is part of the reason I won't be changing anything in this version (stands quite well all by its own self)

This whole project started around two years ago when I needed a distortion for a synth I was working on "Tripp Lead" before that the most I had done to distort a signal was turn up the drive knob on gear others had made

Over the last two years I have gained quite a bit of knowlage of what it takes to distort a signal in a usable way

So what I intend to do is start from scratch in FreeAmp (remove all amps, speakers and Eq's) keep the rest of the FX and build the synth bigtime

That way FreeAmp2 will remain intact (I like it that way) and I can put all the idea's spinning in my head to use! along with the great sugestions that many have been giving into an all new amp.

Fretted Synth

Fretted Synth Audio FreeAmp2 Released