new sequencer (Sequitur)

[sinkmusic]

I have just installed the first beta, and here are my very first impressions :

- It looks very interesting, but, at themoment, i couldn't even play a Vst, so this is a bit frustrating...
Maybe it is because vst scan crashed at first start, but when i reloaded the app, nothing asked me if i wanted to make a re-scan, and i found no "preferences : choose a vst folder path" anywhere. And as there is no installer, i can not uninstall/reinstall !

- there is one thing i do not like : i might be paranoid, but i like "clean" transparent installations, and i remarked that, even having no installer, some files were put a little bit everywhere on my machine, which i don't like a lot (i hate those app that automatically put a folder in "my documents", instead of asking the user where he wants to organize his music files). There is also a file in "C:", and if every program i install put some files in "C:", my hardrive could quickly become a big mess ! And as i rade above that it also create some files in "Windows/PrefTEch", and in "applicationdata", I am a bit afraid to ask how to make a clean uninstall, if there is no uninstall program ?
I trust you if you say it is safe, and i hope it won't harm my computer, but I would really have liked a lot more a more compact and transparent way of installing Sequitur.
If it just need to be unzipped, then i think it only would have to be drag& dropped to the bin to be unisntalled (like a .dll plugin). But if it needs to install many files everywhere, i think 2 things are needed : 1-an installer, asking the user the folders he prefers ; and 2-a clean uninstallation procedure (who wants to search for lost files in a dozen folders ?).

- The global concept looks very interesting, and i like a lot the way you handle clip edit since the first beta : drawing velocity curves, etc...
- I like also every tool on the midi output (remove duplicates, etc) ;
- the "templates" thing to use with hardware is a great idea !!
- nice clean GUI, too.

- But damn ! as a non-native english speaker, and as your program is a bit far away for usual way of handling thing (which is a very good point), would it be possible to explain a little bit more easily how to do the most basic things (using screenshots), and how you play a vsti : where can i find the Vst ? i see only my hardware input/output... ?
I might be dumb, or maybe gone wrong, but i only could play the terrible GM piano sound, and couldn't find a way to nisert efx or instruments...

Sorry for the "negative tone" of my post, i think Sequitur is very promising, but it is a bit disappointing, when you discover a new software, not being able to understand the 1-0-1 first steps...

[jens]

b.t.w.: the midi-editor really is a nightmare workflow-wise - four tools just for selecting, resizing, drawing and resizing events (and it looks like there's only one shortcut for switching to another tool)!!! Why?


edit: double-doubleing

[zOap]

b.t.w.: the midi-editor really is a nightmare workflow-wise - four tools just for selecting, resizing, drawing and resizing events (and it looks like there's only one shortcut for switching to another tool)!!! Why?


(and it looks like there's only one shortcut for switching tools)

Noticed that one too, wth?? You do not need 20 tools for editing, maybe the dev should reconsider this.. And the shortcut stack is far from good enough..

Keep it more streamlined devs..

[hackbod]

b.t.w.: the midi-editor really is a nightmare workflow-wise - four tools just for selecting, resizing, drawing and resizing events (and it looks like there's only one shortcut for switching to another tool)!!! Why?

Yeah, I agree there should be shortcuts for common tools. We'll put that in. This isn't an excuse, but one reason we missed it is because the default configuration allows you to get to all of the basic tools without switching:

LMB: Pencil for creating new events and moving existing ones.
RMB: Wand for modifying the duration/value of events (velocity of notes, value of control changes).
CTRL+LMB: Selection tool for drag-selecting blocks of notes.

Note that you can decide which tools you want mapped to the six button/modifier combinations by clicking on the appropriate tool with the desired button/modifer. The currently mapped tools are shown on the mouse buttons at the top of the window, and change depending on whether or not you are holding down CTRL.

One thing I have been finding I like to do is map the track selection tool to CTRL+RMB, so I can easily switch the track being edited by doing CTRL+RMB on any notes of another track (which are shown in gray in the track window).

Also in case it isn't clear, holding down shift allows you to extend your current selection with the pencil and selection tools. And all tools that modify an event can also operation on a selection, so you can select a group of notes and then use, for example, the wand to modify their velocity/duration or the pencil to move them around in time/pitch en-mass.

I would really like to hear any other things that are getting into people's way for editing data. One of the things I love about Sequitur is how easy it is for me to construct and manipulate very complicated compositions with it. I hope we can provide this same experience for others, though they have their own way of doing things.

[jens]

Note that you can decide which tools you want mapped to the six button/modifier combinations by clicking on the appropriate tool with the desired button/modifer. The currently mapped tools are shown on the mouse buttons at the top of the window, and change depending on whether or not you are holding down CTRL.

that is very cool - I would have never found it myself - I take back almost anything I said!

But it would be good if Sequitur would remember this setting when being closed.


b.t.w:

- the pencil doesn't erase multiple-selections

- and the note-preview shouldn't have the length of the note but stop after releasing

[Joseph Burrell]

Had to reboot, manually create the settings.xml file, and scan the remaining VST's. Now its working though.

Only a few suggestions really. The ability to enter notes into the piano roll without preset note lengths.

A play from start button on the main transport.

Zoomable/sizeable midi controller panes.

Better midi controller implementation, read that as more continuous midi CC drawing.

[marce]

Have you planned some kind of basic score view for it?

[Caleb]

Couldn't run this at all. Apparently I'm missing a .dll.

Could you tell what .dll is missing? It would be nice to fix this, especially if it is easy!

Ooops - my mistake.
What it says is...

"The procedure entry point GetSystemTimes could not be located in the dynamic link library KERNEL32.dll"

Regards
Caleb

[exh]

i couldn't even play a Vst, so this is a bit frustrating...
Maybe it is because vst scan crashed at first start, but when i reloaded the app, nothing asked me if i wanted to make a re-scan, and i found no "preferences : choose a vst folder path" anywhere.

You're right, I made a mistake in the setup so the directory you selected there isn't getting saved. I'll correct this. For now, you select a VST path once the app is running by going to the menu of a song window, File->Preferences->Audio tab, then clicking that '+' button beneath the VST pane. It doesn't currently do a rescan when you do this, so you have to stop and restart.

We're trying to gather as much info as we can on crashing VSTs, so feel free to send your scan log, currently located at C:\Documents and Settings\(your acccount)\Local Settings\Application Data\Angry Red Planet\Sequitur\scanned VSTs.xml to support at angryredplanet.com.

- there is one thing i do not like : i might be paranoid, but i like "clean" transparent installations, and i remarked that, even having no installer, some files were put a little bit everywhere on my machine, which i don't like a lot (i hate those app that automatically put a folder in "my documents", instead of asking the user where he wants to organize his music files). There is also a file in "C:", and if every program i install put some files in "C:", my hardrive could quickly become a big mess ! And as i rade above that it also create some files in "Windows/PrefTEch", and in "applicationdata", I am a bit afraid to ask how to make a clean uninstall, if there is no uninstall program ?

These are all good points, let me address them: First off, you're right, there should be a way to uninstall and at the very least I'll include in the next update a utility for removing the folders sequitur generates.

As far as what it's doing now, it creates two folders:

C:\Documents and Settings\(your acccount)\Local Settings\Application Data\Angry Red Planet\
C:\Documents and Settings\(your acccount)\My Documents\Angry Red Planet\

Delete those and you've cleaned out everything that's been created. And I understand your point about hardcoding the My Documents folder, setting the path at setup seems like a good idea to me.

As for a file being in C:\, there shouldn't be. We have a logging file we write to for error info but that should be turned off. Possibly something slipped by. I believe the only other time a file is created in C:\ is with the Audio Recorder node, and clicking on the node gives you a config view that lets you change that. I'd much appreciate if you can send this file created in C:\ to support at angryredplanet.com so I can see what's going on.

Finally, whatever is created in windows\prefetch\ isn't created by us, but cached by windows to (try and) speed up performance. Should be fine to delete it. http://www.windowsnetworking.com/articl ... ch-XP.html

But damn ! as a non-native english speaker, and as your program is a bit far away for usual way of handling thing (which is a very good point), would it be possible to explain a little bit more easily how to do the most basic things (using screenshots), and how you play a vsti : where can i find the Vst ? i see only my hardware input/output... ?
I might be dumb, or maybe gone wrong, but i only could play the terrible GM piano sound, and couldn't find a way to nisert efx or instruments...

Yes, sorry for the lack of docs. We'll try to get the basics covered quickly. As a very brief overview:

* Any VSTis that scanned correctly will be available to add under the Tracks->Add Synth Track menu. Selecting an item creates a new track with the VST, with data going to channel 1.

* For multichannel VSTs, the easiest way to add additional channels is to again select Tracks->Add Synth Track and go to the same item you selected the first time. Now it has a submenu, one with the name of the VST as it appears in your song (and unfortunately they aren't uniquely named right now, so you can end up with a stack of VSTs with the same name), and an item New for loading a new instance of the VST.

* To add effects after a vst, you mouse over the area immediately after it until you have a yellow selection box on nothing, then right click, which should open a menu with the valid choices for that location.

Sorry for the "negative tone" of my post, i think Sequitur is very promising, but it is a bit disappointing, when you discover a new software, not being able to understand the 1-0-1 first steps...

We appreciate the time you've taken to look and respond. Right now we're just trying to gather the info we need to remove the obstacles for people interested in checking things out, so thanks much for the feedback!

[exh]

b.t.w.: the midi-editor really is a nightmare workflow-wise - four tools just for selecting, resizing, drawing and resizing events

Noticed that one too, wth?? You do not need 20 tools for editing, maybe the dev should reconsider this.. And the shortcut stack is far from good enough..

Keep it more streamlined devs..

Dianne already talked about this but I'm curious for feedback so let me summarize:

As far as I know, you have 2 basic options for MIDI editing. You can have a variety of tools for different purposes, or you can have only a couple tools but overload the hitzone on a note so i.e. clicking on the tail lets you resize it, clicking in the middle lets you change the velocity, and clicking at the head lets you move it.

I'm not a fan of the hitzone method. While it should give you most of the basic options without switching tools a lot, I really hate mousing over some exact, often invisible, location on a note to find the proper zone for what I want to do. I'd much rather have direct command of the exact tool I want to use.

Our system assumes a 3 button mouse, which of course will be a problem for some people. If it turns out a lot of people just don't have a 3 button mouse we might revisit this, but other than macs I would assume that's pretty common by now.

Given this, as dianne mentioned, all basic tools, in conjunction with the CTRL key for switching tool sets, are available without ever going to the toolbar. So the division between 'tool' and 'operation' becomes a little blurred. They aren't tools in the strict sense of you can only have one at a time, they are operations that you can assign to mouse gestures as you like.

We like this because, since one of the points of sequitur is providing new tools that interact with MIDI in new ways, you get to decide the basics of the interaction. For example, the essentially 1 advanced tool currently available, echosystem, also operates as a basic pencil tool (with one stupid oversight, it doesn't currently grab the initial velocity from the track's velocity knob). This means that if you like, instead of having a left-mouse click that just creates single notes, you can have one that creates single notes when you want or runs of notes with rhythmic velocities if you decide to click and drag. The options for how you can interact will grow with the tool set.

[exh]

But it would be good if Sequitur would remember this setting when being closed.

Sorry, not retaining the tool mappings is a bug. Thanks.

the pencil doesn't erase multiple-selections

Maybe I'm not recalling how things work -- does it erase selections at all? I think the eraser tool, the cut operation, and pressing the delete key are the only way to erase events?

and the note-preview shouldn't have the length of the note but stop after releasing

That's kind of embarrasing. It's supposed to but every time I turn my back it seems to be broken.

[exh]

Had to reboot, manually create the settings.xml file, and scan the remaining VST's. Now its working though.

Thanks for the persistence and sorry for the inconvience, that's my fault, the setup should be retaining the supplied info but it's not right currently until basically the app has run once successfully, which needs to be addressed.

Only a few suggestions really. The ability to enter notes into the piano roll without preset note lengths.

Not following -- they have to be some length when you create them, so what are they defaulting to in this case? Right now you can create notes and then use the middle mouse button to immediately resize them, is this sufficient or is there a bit of needed functionality I'm not picking up on?

Or maybe you mean to be able to position notes that aren't locked to a grid? That definitely needs to be there.

A play from start button on the main transport.

You can hit the rewind and start button, is this something you do often enough it's worth the saved button click? (and if that sounded dismissive I didn't mean it to, I think saving a button click is a pretty big deal for common operations)

Zoomable/sizeable midi controller panes.

Better midi controller implementation, read that as more continuous midi CC drawing.

Thanks, yeah, the CC handling is an embarrasment right now. That should get tightened up a lot.

[jens]

the pencil doesn't erase multiple-selections

Maybe I'm not recalling how things work -- does it erase selections at all? I think the eraser tool, the cut operation, and pressing the delete key are the only way to erase events?
.

sorry, I used the wrong word - the eraser (rubber is the word I attempted to write but somehow didn't) is what I meant...

(that happens a lot to me with some certain words and names - I constantly confuse 'fork' with 'spoon' - don't ask me why )

[exh]

Have you planned some kind of basic score view for it?

Sorry, no, not at all. That's an area that's so well developed elsewhere and we'd rather concentrate on more unusual things.

[hackbod]

I get to reply to Eric!

the pencil doesn't erase multiple-selections

Maybe I'm not recalling how things work -- does it erase selections at all? I think the eraser tool, the cut operation, and pressing the delete key are the only way to erase events?

I think Jens might be talking about the fact that if you have multiple notes selected, if you use the pen tool on one of those notes it doesn't clear the selection from the others.

If this is the casem I agree it is a little annoying... but it is also convenient so I feel conflicted about it. It tends to feel natural to me to be able to just click on a selection (without thinking about holding down CTRL) and be able to drag it when I want. However, the times when I want to just select a specific note it is annoying. The app really needs to read my mind.

At any rate, so what I usually end up doing if I want to clear a selection is to click on some other note that is not currently selected, or just tap somewhere else to create a new note and immediately CTRL+z to undo it.

and the note-preview shouldn't have the length of the note but stop after releasing

That's kind of embarrasing. It's supposed to but every time I turn my back it seems to be broken.

Last I checked, I think it is working. Jens, are you asking to have it immediately send a note off when you release the mouse button instead of letting the note play for its entire duration? That's an interesting idea. I can see how makes a lot of sense for single notes, and maybe for selections too (stop playing the selection when you release the button). We can play around with it.

In the meantime, you can always press the stop button to immediately stop whatever is currently playing.