Ok, so I've never really studied structure, it just kind of does itself. Thing is, now I'm trying to work with guitar and bass and drums I need to learn how make a structure for my songs with more of a "band" style mindset. And I'm having trouble.
Ok, so you've got a riff, it could be a simple as two bar chords arpeggiated, it doesn't matter. But where do you go from there? How do you know if something is a chorus and if something is a intro, and all that jazz.
I know a lot of it will be subjective, but I'd like other peoples opinions and experiences to learn from, to make me a better songwriter.
How do you structure a song??
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- KVRAF
- 7315 posts since 7 Mar, 2003
My Youtube Channel - Wires Dream Disasters
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- KVRAF
- 3158 posts since 2 Jul, 2005 from Stuck in the closet
Song form is very, very subjective, I think. Usually, when I create a riff, I make it into an intro to a song, either by developing it into a melody or by making the riff part of the harmony; layer bass, drums over it, and then have that start the song, then add a melody to it all to kick off the first verse. What I've learned from studying pop music is basically... a chorus is when you change the chord(s) and move the song forward. Choruses are usually the catchiest parts of the song. Then you go from the chorus back to the verse, then to the solo or the bridge, or however you want to do it. It's completely open-ended.
When I do pop-influenced music, I usually have an introduction, verse, verse, chorus, bridge. Sometimes I make it verse, verse, chorus, verse, verse, chorus, verse 2. But you can do it however you want it and name it whatever you want to name it. I've seen songs where there are parts called "drums," and it's actually more of a bridge than anything. Not to be confused with a drum solo, either. I've done tracks like that, too, only not as much.
Naoshi Mizuta uses very unconventional forms. He'll start with a simple intro that consists of the harmonies, rhythms, etc. without the melody. Then he'll layer a melody over it. Then play the melody again with slight changes to it, then take the song completely into a different direction to develop it further in a kind of progressive/additive way. No verses, choruses, or anything in his music.
Just go with what you feel. No one will criticize your song form.
I'll stop rambling now. 
When I do pop-influenced music, I usually have an introduction, verse, verse, chorus, bridge. Sometimes I make it verse, verse, chorus, verse, verse, chorus, verse 2. But you can do it however you want it and name it whatever you want to name it. I've seen songs where there are parts called "drums," and it's actually more of a bridge than anything. Not to be confused with a drum solo, either. I've done tracks like that, too, only not as much.
Naoshi Mizuta uses very unconventional forms. He'll start with a simple intro that consists of the harmonies, rhythms, etc. without the melody. Then he'll layer a melody over it. Then play the melody again with slight changes to it, then take the song completely into a different direction to develop it further in a kind of progressive/additive way. No verses, choruses, or anything in his music.
Just go with what you feel. No one will criticize your song form.
I'll stop rambling now. Mizutaphile.
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- KVRAF
- 10286 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
I always, always do it in my head first.
Guitar and bass players oftentimes make the terrible mistake of arranging "riffs" together by just stringing them together and it usually results in a ameteurish jumble.
Of course, I use FL now so it insists on a certain structure that bears little relation to how I'd structure a song, unfortunately.
Guitar and bass players oftentimes make the terrible mistake of arranging "riffs" together by just stringing them together and it usually results in a ameteurish jumble.
Of course, I use FL now so it insists on a certain structure that bears little relation to how I'd structure a song, unfortunately.
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- KVRAF
- 3158 posts since 2 Jul, 2005 from Stuck in the closet
But if it sounds good to you, who cares?jackson wrote:Just your songIldon wrote:Just go with what you feel. No one will criticize your song form.
There'll always be people with different opinions. 
Mizutaphile.
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- Banned
- 252 posts since 2 Apr, 2005 from United Kingdom.
Even though I have made some pretty bad tracks, I believe that one method is literally picking one song, and really getting to know it... I don't just mean listen to it a few times either.I mean, literally decompile it as if it were a c++ program, look at how the drums are done, the bass line, how each element progresses..
Do this in cubase or another sequencer.. you want to check it out, see and visualize how it's all together. You can do this by importing the wave file, and drawing midi sections and colouring them representing each track (drums/vocals/guitar) and see how they all interlink and start and stop from each other.
This is a basic known fact, some people are better at visualising stuff, for me this is a yes.
Oh and, of course, use common sence! if you're making a dance track, don't import a ac/dc song
Do this in cubase or another sequencer.. you want to check it out, see and visualize how it's all together. You can do this by importing the wave file, and drawing midi sections and colouring them representing each track (drums/vocals/guitar) and see how they all interlink and start and stop from each other.
This is a basic known fact, some people are better at visualising stuff, for me this is a yes.
Oh and, of course, use common sence! if you're making a dance track, don't import a ac/dc song
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- KVRAF
- 1868 posts since 26 Oct, 2002 from San Francisco
Your accountant? We're not all amateurs doing this for fun...Ildon wrote:But if it sounds good to you, who cares?jackson wrote:Just your songIldon wrote:Just go with what you feel. No one will criticize your song form.
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- KVRAF
- 3158 posts since 2 Jul, 2005 from Stuck in the closet
@Jackson: Right. 
I think what I said was pretty clear cut. Go with what feels right, use your head, don't stray too far from your genre, etc. I'm not saying don't know your stuff, and I think that was kinda obvious.
xsub put it nicely too. Good advice, because I do that a lot with video game music.
I think what I said was pretty clear cut. Go with what feels right, use your head, don't stray too far from your genre, etc. I'm not saying don't know your stuff, and I think that was kinda obvious.
xsub put it nicely too. Good advice, because I do that a lot with video game music.
Mizutaphile.
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ErrorsUnderPressure ErrorsUnderPressure https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=114369
- KVRer
- 12 posts since 26 Jul, 2006 from UK
Improvise - and then chop up the parts you like and work from there. Doesn't matter if your playing sucks - it's just a draft.
Just make sure your first parts leave lots of space for the next layers.
It's not what you play - it's what you don't.
Just make sure your first parts leave lots of space for the next layers.
It's not what you play - it's what you don't.
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- KVRAF
- 25007 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
aynthing goes - also for commercial music - there has been a lot of unusual stuff been successful ('stairway to heaven' anyone?)
doing it how you feel it should be is part of what can make you unique as a musician - care as little as possible for what others say....
doing it how you feel it should be is part of what can make you unique as a musician - care as little as possible for what others say....
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- KVRAF
- 1868 posts since 26 Oct, 2002 from San Francisco
Correct, Jackson: RightIldon wrote:@Jackson: Right.
Twas just a joke, but with a relevant point.
A lot of people write music for a living, not writing exactly what they are passionate about, but on demand for an employer. Learning new techniques such as different song structures is a key element in this profession, but most importantly, no matter what you write it still should be "good". I can't stand the number of times I watch documentaries based in, say, Africa. The musician loads up a bunch of "african drums and instruments", roughly puts them together in a bad facsimile of an authentic composition without realising that the end product sounds like arse.
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- KVRAF
- 3158 posts since 2 Jul, 2005 from Stuck in the closet
Maybe not "key" element in my opinion, but you're... not... saying anything that's disagreeing with me.jackson wrote:Correct, Jackson: RightIldon wrote:@Jackson: Right.
Twas just a joke, but with a relevant point.
A lot of people write music for a living, not writing exactly what they are passionate about, but on demand for an employer. Learning new techniques such as different song structures is a key element in this profession, but most importantly, no matter what you write it still should be "good".
Mizutaphile.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
just follow it where it goes
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.