Loudness maximizer

[Torben]

Are you saying that plug-ins generally don't cause delay? Then what is the purpose of PDC, found in most hosts now?

There is latency in your audio card and in the Host. The CPU used by the plug-ins is not changing the latency as they will just eat more or less of the available timeslot. PDC is the Host compensating more tracks with different latency. Let's say you got two tracks (one with a kick and one with a snare). The drums are perfectly aligned until you decide to put your SIR convolution reverb on the snare. Now, because SIR got a rather high latency you will hear that the snare it delayed making your drums sound like the drummer was drunk that day. This is where PDC will save you because it will automatically delay the track with the kick with the same latency as SIR so your tracks are perfectly aligned again.

Don't be fooled to think PDC can remove latency, it can only realign your tracks and you will end up with a total additional latency equal to the most delayed track.

Torben

[krank]

Are you saying that plug-ins generally don't cause delay? Then what is the purpose of PDC, found in most hosts now?

There is latency in your audio card and in the Host. The CPU used by the plug-ins is not changing the latency as they will just eat more or less of the available timeslot. PDC is the Host compensating more tracks with different latency. Let's say you got two tracks (one with a kick and one with a snare). The drums are perfectly aligned until you decide to put your SIR convolution reverb on the snare. Now, because SIR got a rather high latency you will hear that the snare it delayed making your drums sound like the drummer was drunk that day. This is where PDC will save you because it will automatically delay the track with the kick with the same latency as SIR so your tracks are perfectly aligned again.

Don't be fooled to think PDC can remove latency, it can only realign your tracks and you will end up with a total additional latency equal to the most delayed track.

Torben

I realise this is getting off topic and I'm not into this for argument's sake - but I really don't get what you're saying and I'm curious to find out what's right, so please bear with me.

A dictionary will define 'latency' and 'delay' as having the exact same meaning. I don't know if there's a concensus among DAW users to define 'latency' as an external host/soundcard-related timing issue and 'delay' as a internal plug-in related timing issue, but of course what I'm addressing is *track latency*, which I assume is also what you mean in your advertising.

You're saying that unlike SIR, your multiband compressor will not add any latency/delay at all to the snare in the above scenario (where it is assumed that PDC is not in effect)?

[Torben]

Are you saying that plug-ins generally don't cause delay? Then what is the purpose of PDC, found in most hosts now?

There is latency in your audio card and in the Host. The CPU used by the plug-ins is not changing the latency as they will just eat more or less of the available timeslot. PDC is the Host compensating more tracks with different latency. Let's say you got two tracks (one with a kick and one with a snare). The drums are perfectly aligned until you decide to put your SIR convolution reverb on the snare. Now, because SIR got a rather high latency you will hear that the snare it delayed making your drums sound like the drummer was drunk that day. This is where PDC will save you because it will automatically delay the track with the kick with the same latency as SIR so your tracks are perfectly aligned again.

Don't be fooled to think PDC can remove latency, it can only realign your tracks and you will end up with a total additional latency equal to the most delayed track.

Torben

I realise this is getting off topic and I'm not into this for argument's sake - but I really don't get what you're saying and I'm curious to find out what's right, so please bear with me.

A dictionary will define 'latency' and 'delay' as having the exact same meaning. I don't know if there's a concensus among DAW users to define 'latency' as an external host/soundcard-related timing issue and 'delay' as a internal plug-in related timing issue, but of course what I'm addressing is *track latency*, which I assume is also what you mean in your advertising.

You're saying that unlike SIR, your multiband compressor will not add any latency/delay at all to the snare in the above scenario (where it is assumed that PDC is not in effect)?

Yes!

[krank]

Yes!

Okay. I simply can't get it into my head how that is possible - PDC is turned off and the audio on this track is being DSP'd while the other is not.

[dalor]

Yes!

Okay. I simply can't get it into my head how that is possible - PDC is turned off and the audio on this track is being DSP'd while the other is not.

Some plugins - such as Kjaerhus Audio Plugins - do NOT add latency (even when "heavy DSP code" is processed!), therefore you do not need PDC at all. On the other hand, lots of other plugins - such as Voxengo Audio Plugins - DO add latency.

Now, try this little experiment: At your Audio/Music VST-host (which needs to support PDC!), add two tracks. On the first track add a Kjaerhus Audio VST plugin effect, on the second track add a Voxengo plugin effect. Replay both tracks in your VST host - and you will notice the second track has some delay and is out of sync. Switch on PDC in your host (if you need to) - and they are suddenly are both in perfect sync - this is what PDC does for you. If plugins have different latency, it corrects it to make sure all tracks are in sync, no matter how many and which plugins are used.
BTW, i own both Voxengo and Kjaerhus Audio plugins, that's why i make this example.

Now, back to the topic please...

[kylen]

So the effect i'm looking for is called upward compression? I'm not sure if that's really what i'm after. Imagine this: Get a short instrument, lets say a percussion sound, a clap. Apply a 10 second reverb on it - i don't want to destroy the very quite parts at the tail of the reverb (for e.g. from 7 seconds onwards) and i don't want the high peaks to be touched as well (for e.g. first 1-2 seconds). Basicly, the 'middle' volume range can be increased. Does it make sense?

Tsis is spec'd out in the Bob Katz book someone mentioned earlier and he shows you how to use parallel compression which then technically makes a type of very clear sounding upward compression.

Look for any compressor with a "Mix" or "Blend" "Dry/Wet" knob on the output. By using a device that applies downward compression and then mixing in some percentage (by ear) of the dry uncompressed signal you can have a very nice sound because of the resulting parallel compression which causes the sense of upward compression (even though you are using a downward compressor device). The transients and peaks are coming thru untouched on the dry path.

Torben's GUP has this, Voxengo Marquis, PSP MixPressor, PSP Vintage Warmer, etc...

[Vibro Larynx]

I'm wondering, there are limiters which increasing the loudness by taming peaks. But are there any plugins which leave the peaks untouched and increase loudness by anything below -15db, all 'peaks' above that are left untouched? What is this effect called if it exists? Thanks!

Neodynium does exactly this (on up to 4 different layers).

[tech44]

Yes!

Okay. I simply can't get it into my head how that is possible - PDC is turned off and the audio on this track is being DSP'd while the other is not.

I think what Krank is getting at is that is 'reality' if you alter something it doesn't happen instantly, but takes some amount of time even if its very small.

Maybe the communication gap here is the difference between 'latency' vs 'noticeable' latency? Or maybe the audio is processed so fast that it's completed faster than the next audio sample is rendered (at say 44.1K)? Or perhaps 'look ahead' processing?

[stefancrs]

Yes!

Okay. I simply can't get it into my head how that is possible - PDC is turned off and the audio on this track is being DSP'd while the other is not.

I think what Krank is getting at is that is 'reality' if you alter something it doesn't happen instantly, but takes some amount of time even if its very small.

Maybe the communication gap here is the difference between 'latency' vs 'noticeable' latency? Or maybe the audio is processed so fast that it's completed faster than the next audio sample is rendered (at say 44.1K)? Or perhaps 'look ahead' processing?

No. You always have atleast a fixed latency due to the buffer size you've set your ASIO driver to work at. If that buffer size corresponds to for instance about 4ms you got about (a little less, there is some overhead when moving data to the soundcard etc) 4ms to calculate the next buffer to feed to the card. What you can do in these 4ms could be something like:
read 4ms worth of audio data from disk for channel one
render 4ms worth of synth audio on channel two
feed that synth audio into a compressor
sum channel one and two into a main mix
feed main mix to soundcard

All that can happen what virtually seems to be instantly and simultaenously, even if it is done in steps.


Btw, for upward compression you could try the beta of the free synthmaker compressor

[dalor]

Look for any compressor with a "Mix" or "Blend" "Dry/Wet" knob on the output. By using a device that applies downward compression and then mixing in some percentage (by ear) of the dry uncompressed signal you can have a very nice sound because of the resulting parallel compression which causes the sense of upward compression (even though you are using a downward compressor device). The transients and peaks are coming thru untouched on the dry path.

kylen, thank you VERY much for this tip - it sounds so simple that i feel stupid replying - but it really does the trick, it's simply amazing. I used PSP Vintagewarmer and just mixed it by 10% and the result is exactly what i was looking for, it just boosts up the quite parts and leave the loud parts/peaks as they are! Great! Thanks heaps!

Where exactly did you got that information from, what is the books name of Bob Katz (in case there is more than once)?

Hey, this technique should be mentioned in the manuals of limiters as well for dummies like me.

I wish MPL-1 or GPP-1 would have a Dry/Wet Mix knob as well as.

[dgkenney]

Where exactly did you got that information from, what is the books name of Bob Katz (in case there is more than once)?

Maybe you should check out the 4th message in this thread.


Dan

[dalor]

Maybe you should check out the 4th message in this thread.

Ups, maybe i should have Thank you very much! (I'm not making excuses but i believe not every one would remember each post in a thread, especially not me as i am really forgetful).

[kylen]

kylen, thank you VERY much for this tip - it sounds so simple that i feel stupid replying - but it really does the trick, it's simply amazing. I used PSP Vintagewarmer and just mixed it by 10% and the result is exactly what i was looking for, it just boosts up the quite parts and leave the loud parts/peaks as they are! Great! Thanks heaps!

Where exactly did you got that information from, what is the books name of Bob Katz (in case there is more than once)?

You're welcome - I picked it up from the PSP guys (in the Vintage Warmer forum no less!), Bob Katz Book and hanging around KVR listening to folks talk. It's easy to miss at first but a really fine technique to sweeten or bring out hidden aspects of a good mix.

Mastering Audio (Bob Katz):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/024080 ... e&n=283155

[dgkenney]

Maybe you should check out the 4th message in this thread.

Ups, maybe i should have Thank you very much! (I'm not making excuses but i believe not every one would remember each post in a thread, especially not me as i am really forgetful).

Sorry if that sounded harsh. Didn't mean it that way. In any case, a great book with invaluable tips.

Dan

[Firebird]

I'm wondering, there are limiters which increasing the loudness by taming peaks. But are there any plugins which leave the peaks untouched and increase loudness by anything below -15db, all 'peaks' above that are left untouched? What is this effect called if it exists? Thanks!

I don't know if this is what you are looking for but it sounds close, hope it helps.

EXTREME PUNCH
http://recordingschool.biz/homerecordin ... 2f29191673