Lads,
While this is hardly breaking news to most, I felt the urge to comment as it regards a matter that gets bought up regularly on this forum - sample copyrights!
For those unaware, it appears that poor old BT is getting sued for an insane amount of money due to a possible copyright infringement on his CD 'Breaks from the Nuskool' (incidentally, one of my fave sample libraries).
Im not sure which sample, but beings as BT programmed it in Reason, Im assuming it must be the mechanical copyright that he has allegedly infringed? Lol, I had no idea you could copyright a simple rhythm like that. But I might be wrong, maybe it was a phonographic copyright. If so, then there is really no way of proving it given even the slightest hint of processing to the audio (watermarking and fingerprinting are not nearly robust enough).
But what I find interesting is that so many big selling sample CD's are made almost entirely from illegal content! I wont go into it to much, but basically a producer from one major developer even admitted to me that his sample CD was 99% illegal vinyl samples. Even worse, a release from the same company has loops ripped straight out of current records! And not small fry - 50 Cent's 'In the Club amongst others!!!
Assuming these guys arent getting sued for 10 million every week, I wonder why it is that BT is on the receiving end of all this grief for a poxy one bar loop?
Has he just been insanely unlucky?
Or is this the way of things to come?
Is it about time for sample developers to start really meaning their '100% copyright free' promises?
If so, then surely it will be end of the industry, or atleast some companies. I mean, electronic beat CD's are always going to feature sampled drums from records and drum machines, along with generic type rhythmic patterns.
What do you guys think about this?
Another thing...
I was under the impression that compensation had to be proportional to damages? Surely people cant just decide how much they want to chance without being able to prove to some extent the value of the damages?
I wonder if this guy is just a nutter trying to hurt BT, or whether he really does have a case that a judge will take seriously? Obviously I know little of the US legal system, but this sounds pretty insane!
But highly relevant, considering how many of us around here produce samples.
TB
Sample Copyright / BT Lawsuit
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
He's the big dog. When you are the litigious kind, always go for the big dog, increases your likelihood of getting a big, fat settlement.
But, there have been other lawsuits over sampling of course. And I'm willing to bet many possible lawsuits were averted with settlements prior to becoming public knowledge.
But, there have been other lawsuits over sampling of course. And I'm willing to bet many possible lawsuits were averted with settlements prior to becoming public knowledge.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Indeed.
Its highly unlikely that a sample dev would announce to the world that its being sued for including illegal content in its '100% copyright free' products.
But I guess that begs the question, are their many cases like this with sound developers?
I remember Eric from Spectrasonics mentioning a few years ago that it was no uncommon for companies to be bought down over a single uncleared sample. However, in these cases I suspect that the sample in question was quite blatently obvious.
With respect to the BT case, I certainly hope he keeps the public posted. I would be highly interested to see how this one turns out (for a variety of reasons).
TB
Its highly unlikely that a sample dev would announce to the world that its being sued for including illegal content in its '100% copyright free' products.
But I guess that begs the question, are their many cases like this with sound developers?
I remember Eric from Spectrasonics mentioning a few years ago that it was no uncommon for companies to be bought down over a single uncleared sample. However, in these cases I suspect that the sample in question was quite blatently obvious.
With respect to the BT case, I certainly hope he keeps the public posted. I would be highly interested to see how this one turns out (for a variety of reasons).
TB
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- KVRAF
- 3944 posts since 7 May, 2004 from behind his workbench
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- KVRAF
- 4687 posts since 6 Jan, 2003
my guess is that its a either one of these, or a combination of them:tee boy wrote: Assuming these guys arent getting sued for 10 million every week, I wonder why it is that BT is on the receiving end of all this grief for a poxy one bar loop?
Has he just been insanely unlucky?
1. he got caught by someone who was concerned enough about their work to complain about it.
2. he's a big enough name that he can be made 'an example' out of.
3. he is seen as having enough money that they could get a good chunk of cash from him.
as far as im concerned, its long overdue for that. i have no problems with people sampling something pre-existing, then mangling/altering it beyond recognition. that is just part of the creative art of sampling.Is it about time for sample developers to start really meaning their '100% copyright free' promises?
but if someone samples someone elses loops/samples/presets and just repackages them with little or no change, all they are doing is profiting off of someone else's hard work. its taking the easy way out, its not creative, and its just ripping someone off.
of course it is always possible that someone could mess up and forget to edit the hell out of one sample within their sample pool before they put the library up for sale, but that does kind of point to at least the dev not paying enough attention to their work since you'd at least expect something like that would be caught during loop editing.
of course, my suggestions do bring into question what actually can be considered "altered enough." that is very subjective, and i recognize that is a big problem with my argument. i have no good answer for that. but just lifting other people's work and reselling it without permission or compensation (and all the while claming it as your own original material, as many do) just seems wrong to me.
[edit] things also get even more confusing when discussing loops of other people's sounds. it may be someone else's sound, but is the customer paying for the sound? the looped musical progression? both? who has the rights there?
there has always been a hell of a lot of gray area in sampling. over twenty years in and we still cant figure out a clear set of rules that make sense in all situations. on one hand you dont want to crush something that has clearly proven itself to be an asset to the growth of modern music. on the other hand, it doesnt seem quite right to resell other people's work without permission either.
so do we work towards a solution/compromise, or do we just say to hell with it and let everything become fair game for whatever purpose as soon as it gets released into the world? its not an easy question to answer. (and most that jump to the immediate conclusion that everything should be fair game have never been on the loosing end of that deal before.)[/edit]
it may not be the apocalypse of an industry. musicians will still want to buy samples, so i think that all this would do is force samplists to become more creative and either make their own stuff from scratch or warp 'borrowed' material in new and creative ways. of course if some companies are unwilling or unable to do this then lawsuits like this may be the end of them, but the more creative devs should be fine. it may even open up the field to other, smaller, creative sample devs.If so, then surely it will be end of the industry, or atleast some companies. I mean, electronic beat CD's are always going to feature sampled drums from records and drum machines, along with generic type rhythmic patterns.
who knows...since people are so brainwashed for using the same sounds over and over again, maybe it would end up being a good thing for the music world if they had to choose from a wider palette?
i've seen people bring up the possibility that to create original material would increase the price of sample libraries because it would take more time. while there may be some validity to that, i think it would be worth a possible price increase to in order to get more creative work. similarly, i would be willing to pay for several smaller libraries that had more interesting material rather than a single massive library stuffed with generic, boring stuff. also, i know samplists who do creative work and keep their prices low. if they can do it, so can others.
sample prices have dropped over the years anyway, and i think the increase in web distribution can further help keep prices reasonable. (it also increases competition because smaller devs can have a bit more level playing field against larger devs.)
my suspicion is that the monitary damage claim will consist of:I was under the impression that compensation had to be proportional to damages? Surely people cant just decide how much they want to chance without being able to prove to some extent the value of the damages?
- a precentage of the sales of the product based on the number of samples in question vs the number of samples in the collection.
- the estimated number of productions this sample could already be illegally part of.
- something just for the fact that it was swiped.
- other stuff lawyers are particularly good at coming up with in order to inflate damage claims.
if it turns out to be true that BT ripped off someone elses stuff instead of making it up himself, then began selling it while all the while claiming it was his own work...then yes, someone may have a legit claim against him.I wonder if this guy is just a nutter trying to hurt BT, or whether he really does have a case that a judge will take seriously?
but if thats not really the case and the sample in question is significantly different from the original to proove that it became something new, then BT may be in the clear. it really depends on what he exactly did and if the claim is legit. from what you are saying it may not be clear yet if it was just the pattern that was taken (in which case i think this may be a very flimsy case considering how common place many rhythms are) or if the sounds themselves were also sampled.
it depends on the judge too. rulings here in the US have been pretty harsh over the last few years. (though it was funny to see the RIAA freak out over a sample lawsuit a year or so ago. they bring it all on, then claim the ruling is wrong and harsh when it means that they could be financially caught up in the fallout. but that was a different story, and i digress.)
and btw, i agree...breakz from the nu skool is one of the best drum loop libraries i've bought. hopefully it will turn out that the cd is clean, or that it was just that one loop that was of questionable origin.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
"and btw, i agree...breakz from the nu skool is one of the best drum loop libraries i've bought. hopefully it will turn out that the cd is clean, or that it was just that one loop that was of questionable origin."
Well lets not kid ourselves, this CD has sampled material on it no doubt. But we're talking 'exceptable' sampling 9if there is such a thing), ie, old vinyl breaks, hits from drum machines keyboards etc. For instance there are a few recognisable breaks on there, which BT has done some treatment on. I think most agree that this is all fair game. I mean, the sampling of breaks has been going on since medievil times, right?
But as many people have stated already, BT's programming is such that its highly unlikely anyone elses work would measure up. It really makes little sense to think that BT would steal a loop that could easy be knocked up in Reason in a few minutes.
"it may not be the apocalypse of an industry. musicians will still want to buy samples, so i think that all this would do is force samplists to become more creative and either make their own stuff from scratch or warp 'borrowed' material in new and creative ways."
I was thinking more from the perspective on the devs themselves. With consumers demanding more and more for their sample dollars, would this make it no longer a viable business? I mean, the time and effort that would go into making one of todays huge libraries with 100% original sounds and without compromising quality would make for ALOT of graft. Perhaps to much for the potential revenues?
For a start, just imagine how difficult it would be to recreate a vinyl style beat using original sources? That could take a good chunk of the budget before we even start. Indeed, some CD's (like the amazing Planet of the Breaks series) offer nothing more than original loops in the vinyl style.
"i've seen people bring up the possibility that to create original material would increase the price of sample libraries because it would take more time. while there may be some validity to that, i think it would be worth a possible price increase to in order to get more creative work. similarly, i would be willing to pay for several smaller libraries that had more interesting material rather than a single massive library stuffed with generic, boring stuff."
I couldnt agree more.
At what point did quantity suddenly overtake quality? Give me 200mb of top notch drum loops over 2gb of crap anyday of the week.
But its true that some devs do try to quantify value in terms of mb's per product. I remember one guy (I forget who) trying to convince me that his product (in a similar style) was better than 'Distorted Reality 2' as it contained significantly more content for a lower price.
The point he missed is that much of his sounds (which were admittedly very nice) were easily reproducable using a typical array of VST's. While by todays standards DR2 is not at all large, the sounds are so unique and usable that they are easily worth the relatively high asking price.
This is something I try my best to remember when Im working on samples - not all samples are equal!
TB
Well lets not kid ourselves, this CD has sampled material on it no doubt. But we're talking 'exceptable' sampling 9if there is such a thing), ie, old vinyl breaks, hits from drum machines keyboards etc. For instance there are a few recognisable breaks on there, which BT has done some treatment on. I think most agree that this is all fair game. I mean, the sampling of breaks has been going on since medievil times, right?
But as many people have stated already, BT's programming is such that its highly unlikely anyone elses work would measure up. It really makes little sense to think that BT would steal a loop that could easy be knocked up in Reason in a few minutes.
"it may not be the apocalypse of an industry. musicians will still want to buy samples, so i think that all this would do is force samplists to become more creative and either make their own stuff from scratch or warp 'borrowed' material in new and creative ways."
I was thinking more from the perspective on the devs themselves. With consumers demanding more and more for their sample dollars, would this make it no longer a viable business? I mean, the time and effort that would go into making one of todays huge libraries with 100% original sounds and without compromising quality would make for ALOT of graft. Perhaps to much for the potential revenues?
For a start, just imagine how difficult it would be to recreate a vinyl style beat using original sources? That could take a good chunk of the budget before we even start. Indeed, some CD's (like the amazing Planet of the Breaks series) offer nothing more than original loops in the vinyl style.
"i've seen people bring up the possibility that to create original material would increase the price of sample libraries because it would take more time. while there may be some validity to that, i think it would be worth a possible price increase to in order to get more creative work. similarly, i would be willing to pay for several smaller libraries that had more interesting material rather than a single massive library stuffed with generic, boring stuff."
I couldnt agree more.
At what point did quantity suddenly overtake quality? Give me 200mb of top notch drum loops over 2gb of crap anyday of the week.
But its true that some devs do try to quantify value in terms of mb's per product. I remember one guy (I forget who) trying to convince me that his product (in a similar style) was better than 'Distorted Reality 2' as it contained significantly more content for a lower price.
The point he missed is that much of his sounds (which were admittedly very nice) were easily reproducable using a typical array of VST's. While by todays standards DR2 is not at all large, the sounds are so unique and usable that they are easily worth the relatively high asking price.
This is something I try my best to remember when Im working on samples - not all samples are equal!
TB
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- KVRian
- 781 posts since 26 Feb, 2004 from UK
This really stinks 
I heard about this along time ago, I feel sorry for BT. It's not fair someone is aloud to do this kinda thing.
The guy who is sueing deserves a REALLY hard kick in the nuts.
All the best to Brian.
I heard about this along time ago, I feel sorry for BT. It's not fair someone is aloud to do this kinda thing. The guy who is sueing deserves a REALLY hard kick in the nuts.
All the best to Brian.
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- KVRian
- 1399 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
This entry was posted on Thursday, February 2nd, 2006
Producer Brian "BT" Transeau announced on his Myspace blog that he is involved in four lawsuits and is being sued for $10 million. According to Transeau's entry, the lawsuits have put him on the brink of bankruptcy. "One lawsuit is ongoing. There is a guy in New York that claims ONE loop on my sample CD (a one bar loop) is his. A composer used it in a Pfizer commercial and he heard it, says it's his. I made the loop in Reason in about 5 minutes, and furthermore after paying a musicologist $10,000, found out that it's the first beat in the book 'Intro to drumming,' literally the first beat they teach you when you learn to play drums. Well, how's this for the American legal system….."
Transeau says that East/West, the company that distributed the CD, and Pfizer are all named in the suit. "We have done FFT analysis of the loop, showed the judge waveforms, etc…..does not matter. In America, you can sue anyone for anything. Here's the kicker: I have to pay for my own defense, and this guy has some ambulance chaser attorney working on a percentage with nothing better to do than try to force a settlement with a huge corporation, and some guy that just loves making music and sounds, so he can sit on his ass and smoke weed all day. I swear sometimes I want to renounce my citizenship."
Despite his legal woes, Traseau is in the midst of starting a band with ex-Replacements drummer Tommy Stinson. "Were starting a band and have almost finished an entire record. There's not an electronic thing on it…..think a drunk slow version of the Pogues versus the Pixies."
----So it's over then or what, what was the outcome, link anyone ?
Jeff
Producer Brian "BT" Transeau announced on his Myspace blog that he is involved in four lawsuits and is being sued for $10 million. According to Transeau's entry, the lawsuits have put him on the brink of bankruptcy. "One lawsuit is ongoing. There is a guy in New York that claims ONE loop on my sample CD (a one bar loop) is his. A composer used it in a Pfizer commercial and he heard it, says it's his. I made the loop in Reason in about 5 minutes, and furthermore after paying a musicologist $10,000, found out that it's the first beat in the book 'Intro to drumming,' literally the first beat they teach you when you learn to play drums. Well, how's this for the American legal system….."
Transeau says that East/West, the company that distributed the CD, and Pfizer are all named in the suit. "We have done FFT analysis of the loop, showed the judge waveforms, etc…..does not matter. In America, you can sue anyone for anything. Here's the kicker: I have to pay for my own defense, and this guy has some ambulance chaser attorney working on a percentage with nothing better to do than try to force a settlement with a huge corporation, and some guy that just loves making music and sounds, so he can sit on his ass and smoke weed all day. I swear sometimes I want to renounce my citizenship."
Despite his legal woes, Traseau is in the midst of starting a band with ex-Replacements drummer Tommy Stinson. "Were starting a band and have almost finished an entire record. There's not an electronic thing on it…..think a drunk slow version of the Pogues versus the Pixies."
----So it's over then or what, what was the outcome, link anyone ?
Jeff
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- KVRAF
- 4345 posts since 8 Mar, 2005
I'm listening to Nu Skool Beats demo from soundsonline, and it sounds like reason's Scream was used extensively. 
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- KVRAF
- 4345 posts since 8 Mar, 2005
BTW, suing people for a simple mistake/coincidence is NOT cool. The guy who's suing might get what he want, but I bet his life is not at all happy at the moment.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Quite a few of the loops use sounds from the Reason Redrum library. But to be honest, Id bet that Propellorhead are glad! Reason sales must have gone through the roof since BT became an avocate of the software.
TB
TB
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- KVRAF
- 4345 posts since 8 Mar, 2005
Are you sure some sounds are from the redrum library? If so, i'm suprised to hear it because i thought due to copyright infringements, BT would stick to using his own samples. I didnt know you could even use other software samples in your own sample CD. Or perhaps, he got permission from propellerheads folks to do it?
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- KVRist
- 76 posts since 4 Apr, 2002
... The essence of it. And why it can potentially "bring down" - anyone.liars&ashes wrote:This entry was posted on Thursday, February 2nd, 2006
"We have done FFT analysis of the loop, showed the judge waveforms, etc…..does not matter. In America, you can sue anyone for anything. Here's the kicker: I have to pay for my own defense, and this guy has some ambulance chaser attorney working on a percentage with nothing better to do than try to force a settlement ...."
YOU have pay, to prove your 'innocence'. The Courts don't have any "screening mechanism" which pre-empts FALSE claims against anyone, for anything.
There are alot of people here, who literally make their "living" - sueing people... They should be euthanized -(IMO)
g.