Sample Copyright / BT Lawsuit
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- KVRist
- 76 posts since 4 Apr, 2002
... Granted there are potential "remedies", but to my mind, the mind-f**k which is the neccessity to find them by having been placed in a position that demands you do, is not unlike some asshole-neanderthal forcing a typically non-violent person, into a fight.toddyjoe wrote:... The "system" is not always the bad guy and not always ineffective if people know their legal rights and remedies.
Personally, I would like to see the people making 'false' claims, be highly at risk of being imprisoned. This could well qwell much of the crap being needlessly 'defended', both personal, and corporate. Save by those who are already 'prison' savvy, and don't care. Which does constitute a scarily large percentage of the population (btw).
It is such a gross waste of resources, to defend against the dregs of societies fantasies of 'instant wealth'.
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Reverse Engineer Reverse Engineer https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9129
- KVRAF
- 4968 posts since 23 Sep, 2003 from Glasgow
Far too many of the 'right people' benefit from it for it to ever end.der_gary wrote:... Granted there are potential "remedies", but to my mind, the mind-f**k which is the neccessity to find them by having been placed in a position that demands you do, is not unlike some asshole-neanderthal forcing a typically non-violent person, into a fight.toddyjoe wrote:... The "system" is not always the bad guy and not always ineffective if people know their legal rights and remedies.
Personally, I would like to see the people making 'false' claims, be highly at risk of being imprisoned. This could well qwell much of the crap being needlessly 'defended', both personal, and corporate. Save by those who are already 'prison' savvy, and don't care. Which does constitute a scarily large percentage of the population (btw).
It is such a gross waste of resources, to defend against the dregs of societies fantasies of 'instant wealth'.
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- KVRist
- 234 posts since 7 Feb, 2006
Two comments here:
1. While it is horrible to be on the receiving end of a lawsuit, anyone that has ever been in the position of the plaintiff knows that it is, in fact, very difficult to get big settlements from anybody (car accidents, product liability, etc.) The few big cases make the headlines, but all the little guys that get squashed never get talked about. Yes, anyone can file a lawsuit, but it is a politics-driven myth that companies shell out big piles of money to settle them quickly.
2. I'd be curious to know how this lawsuit ended. My understanding of the current sampling law in the US (as of about 2004), is that there's a pretty bright line now. If you use an actual recording of someone else's work without permission, no matter how mangled, you have infringed, period. Even one drum-shot. That being said, I'd bet the plaintiff won't get near the amount claimed.
Anyone know where the suit stands now?
1. While it is horrible to be on the receiving end of a lawsuit, anyone that has ever been in the position of the plaintiff knows that it is, in fact, very difficult to get big settlements from anybody (car accidents, product liability, etc.) The few big cases make the headlines, but all the little guys that get squashed never get talked about. Yes, anyone can file a lawsuit, but it is a politics-driven myth that companies shell out big piles of money to settle them quickly.
2. I'd be curious to know how this lawsuit ended. My understanding of the current sampling law in the US (as of about 2004), is that there's a pretty bright line now. If you use an actual recording of someone else's work without permission, no matter how mangled, you have infringed, period. Even one drum-shot. That being said, I'd bet the plaintiff won't get near the amount claimed.
Anyone know where the suit stands now?
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- KVRAF
- 16850 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
I can understand BT's involvement, but wouldn't the publisher (EastWest) be the right tree to bark up to in this case?
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. 
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRer
- 3 posts since 25 Oct, 2004
If a sample is sold as cleared and royalty-free, supposedly that protects the user, or at least it is supposed to, right?
But since many loops are very distinctively "a mini song/melody" (I'm not talking about drum loops) and there will be those folks using them, I wonder this: Let's say person X used that loop and built a song aroung it for a Toyota commercial. But still distinctive. Another person used it for Budweiser Beer, unknowingly. Both commercials hit around the same time on the air. Since the "melody/riff" is identical, do the companies have recourse? or is it absolved because it was originally a cleared loop? One thing I bet though, is the company may think twice before hiring that composer again.
In most instances, a composer would want to be original for a job like that, and at the very least, may use an RMX loop or beat that may pop up on another instance. But if they do use a melodically-identifiable loop I referred to, does that fall into a grey area?
For me, I wouldn't want my song to have a publically available segment also heard in hundreds of other people's songs too. On the other hand, there are soooo many loops around that I also wonder what is the likelyhood of that. Food for thought, I guess.
But since many loops are very distinctively "a mini song/melody" (I'm not talking about drum loops) and there will be those folks using them, I wonder this: Let's say person X used that loop and built a song aroung it for a Toyota commercial. But still distinctive. Another person used it for Budweiser Beer, unknowingly. Both commercials hit around the same time on the air. Since the "melody/riff" is identical, do the companies have recourse? or is it absolved because it was originally a cleared loop? One thing I bet though, is the company may think twice before hiring that composer again.
In most instances, a composer would want to be original for a job like that, and at the very least, may use an RMX loop or beat that may pop up on another instance. But if they do use a melodically-identifiable loop I referred to, does that fall into a grey area?
For me, I wouldn't want my song to have a publically available segment also heard in hundreds of other people's songs too. On the other hand, there are soooo many loops around that I also wonder what is the likelyhood of that. Food for thought, I guess.
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- KVRAF
- 16850 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
Lemuse,
In this case there are two seperate derived works, so there should be no issues.
And who knows, maybe it was the same composer on both commercials and his contract states the song remains his property and not sold exclusively. So he sold two slightly different versions. Can be done if all parties agreed to it
But the same goes for the Casio VL-1 / VL-Tone. Anyone using the builtin rhythms is assured it's immediately recognisable as such. Still it's done.
Why buy a sampled loops disk and not use it? That what it's for!! You knowingly run the risk of not being original. All in the game...
In this case there are two seperate derived works, so there should be no issues.
And who knows, maybe it was the same composer on both commercials and his contract states the song remains his property and not sold exclusively. So he sold two slightly different versions. Can be done if all parties agreed to it
But the same goes for the Casio VL-1 / VL-Tone. Anyone using the builtin rhythms is assured it's immediately recognisable as such. Still it's done.
Why buy a sampled loops disk and not use it? That what it's for!! You knowingly run the risk of not being original. All in the game...
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
The DMCA is the greatest boon to American copyright lawyers ever.
I mean read this
Dig the bit about Stephen King being liable for damages for reading his own book in the 'wrong' format.
Lawyers have taken over the US.
They have done so with people's blessing, because everyone wants to be able to sue anyone else.
I mean read this
Dig the bit about Stephen King being liable for damages for reading his own book in the 'wrong' format.
Lawyers have taken over the US.
They have done so with people's blessing, because everyone wants to be able to sue anyone else.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Haha, reminds me of a thought I had a bit back (while twiddling thumbs) - if you sell your samples to a publisher, do you need to buy an official copy in order to use them in your music?herodotus wrote:The DMCA is the greatest boon to American copyright lawyers ever.
I mean read this
Dig the bit about Stephen King being liable for damages for reading his own book in the 'wrong' format.
Lawyers have taken over the US.
They have done so with people's blessing, because everyone wants to be able to sue anyone else.
Daft question, but in the current legal climate, I can just imagine someone getting sued for using their own samples without permission!
Silliness aside...
I do sincerely hope that BT makes it through this in one piece. Sometimes I guess we forget that cyberspace is very much 'real' these days. I have said stuff before about samples that Iv recognised, and only afterwards realised the seriousness of what Id posted! This business is very real, and I guess it should be a lesson to us all (in professional work that is).
If you're putting it out, dont take any risks! Cuz there is likely to be some crazy, obsessive nutter on the other side of the planet who'll call you up on it.
TB
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- KVRian
- 781 posts since 26 Feb, 2004 from UK
They are getting sued as well I believe.BertKoor wrote:I can understand BT's involvement, but wouldn't the publisher (EastWest) be the right tree to bark up to in this case?