I own Live and P5. Live does has a great set of features. But, I could not figure out why Abelton ignored issues with Sampletank for over eight months on their forum, till I realized it may relate to copy protection. Live and IK (makers of Sampletank) both use Challenge / response copy protection. Hmmm...bad business to point fingers at a technology both companies use, so maybe best to ignore issues....
Anyway, Cakewalk products just work. It's true that P5 workflow is not as good as Live, but on the other hand it has no restrictive copy protection that causes reliability issues. Works like a charm with all my VSTi's. And Dimension, included with P5, is a top shelf soft Rompler. Again, your mileage may vary, but I am moving away from any software that uses hardware based copy protection, in order to keep my system stable.
Live5 vs reason vs fruityloops vs project 5
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- KVRist
- 263 posts since 12 Mar, 2004 from LA CA USA
Reason is the first audio program I've used wherein if something doesn't work... it's my fault. The first. Never found a bug. And that's worth something, in and of itself. (That said, I wish the programming knobs on the samplers were easier to turn... and I wouldn't have to go through the whole copy protection thing everytime I do anything to my hardware...)
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
I thought IK stuff was all dongle-protected?EnzymeX wrote:I own Live and P5. Live does has a great set of features. But, I could not figure out why Abelton ignored issues with Sampletank for over eight months on their forum, till I realized it may relate to copy protection. Live and IK (makers of Sampletank) both use Challenge / response copy protection. Hmmm...bad business to point fingers at a technology both companies use, so maybe best to ignore issues....
And Sampletank has problems in other sequencers, not just Live. I'm not saying Ableton shouldn't try to sort it out if they can at their end, but I've certainly seen reports on both the Tracktion and Sonar foruims from people having problems with Sampletank. I briefly ran the free Sampletank LE software and it was aweful. IK seem to have a very bad reputation for customer support too.... I simply avoid all their stuff.
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- KVRist
- 227 posts since 27 May, 2004
headquest,
Yes, Sampletank is moving toward dongles, but used c/r for years (up to v2.0.9 at least). To your point, application conflicts are rarely one sided. However:
Sampletank 1 won't run at all as of v4.1.4. Also, Sampletank 2.0 won't run reliably in any version of Live (ST stops responding to input after a while, especially if used as multi output).
By contrast, Sampletank v1.4 and v2.0.9 work very well for me in Project 5.
Yes, Sampletank is moving toward dongles, but used c/r for years (up to v2.0.9 at least). To your point, application conflicts are rarely one sided. However:
Sampletank 1 won't run at all as of v4.1.4. Also, Sampletank 2.0 won't run reliably in any version of Live (ST stops responding to input after a while, especially if used as multi output).
By contrast, Sampletank v1.4 and v2.0.9 work very well for me in Project 5.
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- KVRian
- 1302 posts since 9 Oct, 2003 from California
I use Sampletank 2.0, 2.1 Sonik Synth 1, 2, Amplitube 2 and CSR in Live 4,5 and now 6 beta without problems. Not saying anything other than my personal experience. (P4 2.8 1 gig XP)
I really, really, really tried to like P5V2 but the workflow (re: track/layers especially with multi-timbral instruments) was counter intuitive to my way of doing things. Add to that the limited audio recording and routing and restricted audio editing and it was a no-go for me and P5V2. Perhaps V2.5 due at the end of the year will be more to my liking.
Live, OTOH, is like they were in my head.
To each his own.
Dan
I really, really, really tried to like P5V2 but the workflow (re: track/layers especially with multi-timbral instruments) was counter intuitive to my way of doing things. Add to that the limited audio recording and routing and restricted audio editing and it was a no-go for me and P5V2. Perhaps V2.5 due at the end of the year will be more to my liking.
Live, OTOH, is like they were in my head.
To each his own.
Dan
Those that can, do. Those that can't, argue about it on k-v-r
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- KVRist
- 227 posts since 27 May, 2004
djkenney,dgkenney wrote:I use Sampletank 2.0, 2.1 Sonik Synth 1, 2, Amplitube 2 and CSR in Live 4,5 and now 6 beta without problems. Not saying anything other than my personal experience. (P4 2.8 1 gig XP)
I really, really, really tried to like P5V2 but the workflow (re: track/layers especially with multi-timbral instruments) was counter intuitive to my way of doing things. Add to that the limited audio recording and routing and restricted audio editing and it was a no-go for me and P5V2. Perhaps V2.5 due at the end of the year will be more to my liking.
Live, OTOH, is like they were in my head.
To each his own.
Dan
Live was inside my head as well - it's a very well thought out program! I wish I could have your experience from a reliability perspective.
I also agree with you about the shortcomings of Project 5.
What bugs me is that I have a well specified AMD 64 3700+, built from an respected DAW company, and I could not make it happen with Live. I'm also in IT, so I have been taught the tricks, and my O/S configuration is very clean by most standards.
Believe me when I say I'm glad it's working for you. Just curious: Are you using Sampletank extensively in multi output mode?
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- KVRAF
- 27006 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
EnzymeX wrote:djkenney,dgkenney wrote:I use Sampletank 2.0, 2.1 Sonik Synth 1, 2, Amplitube 2 and CSR in Live 4,5 and now 6 beta without problems. Not saying anything other than my personal experience. (P4 2.8 1 gig XP)
I really, really, really tried to like P5V2 but the workflow (re: track/layers especially with multi-timbral instruments) was counter intuitive to my way of doing things. Add to that the limited audio recording and routing and restricted audio editing and it was a no-go for me and P5V2. Perhaps V2.5 due at the end of the year will be more to my liking.
Live, OTOH, is like they were in my head.
To each his own.
Dan
Live was inside my head as well - it's a very well thought out program! I wish I could have your experience from a reliability perspective.
I also agree with you about the shortcomings of Project 5.
What bugs me is that I have a well specified AMD 64 3700+, built from an respected DAW company, and I could not make it happen with Live. I'm also in IT, so I have been taught the tricks, and my O/S configuration is very clean by most standards.
Believe me when I say I'm glad it's working for you. Just curious: Are you using Sampletank extensively in multi output mode?
it is sorta wierd the stability thing. Tracktion crashed constantly for me. For others it has never crashed. Live is as solid as can be for me. I did manage to crash the Live 6 beta once this week!
And I also just like the way Live works. It makes a lot of sense to me. I'd be bummed if I were having the stability problems you are.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
EnzymeX wrote:headquest,
Yes, Sampletank is moving toward dongles, but used c/r for years (up to v2.0.9 at least). To your point, application conflicts are rarely one sided.
That's no doubt true of course, but having swapped between different hosts, I have noticed that Sampletank (specifically) and IK stuff (generally) seem to crop up very regularly as having bugs/problems, quite apart from their nasty registration system and now dongle protection...
For example, like pdxindy I used to be really into Tracktion. At their forum I saw one thread after another where people reported their IK problems. Here's a small sample of the comments from that forum:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sampletank
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... nk&start=0
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sampletank
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sampletank
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sampletank
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sampletank
Sonar, my replacement for Tracktion, also also not immune from IK problems:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=5953 ... es򑖺
["This is the worst piece of software I have ever used..."
]http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=4974 ... es񹤔
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=7705 ... nk򿛲
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=7582 ... nk򹗏
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=4974 ... es񹤔
...which is why I'm hardly suprised to see some people having problems with it in Ableton too.
And yet not for everyone, as these P5 forum threads show:By contrast, Sampletank v1.4 and v2.0.9 work very well for me in Project 5.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=2038 ... sh𱷌
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=2143 ... sh𴔥
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=4560 ... sh񯖪
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1009 ... sh𘨼
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=2292 ... sh𸒲
Bottom line is... I'm sorry but not suprised to hear that you hae had stability issues with Live when using Sampletank. But when discussing Live's stability itself, including IK products in the discussion already significantly narrows down the source of your problem
The only way avoid incompatability problems is to use a closed system such as Reason. But if you are going to use a host and plugins (as I also do) then my advice is to find the host you most like, stick with it, and build a collection of plugs around the host that are known to work well.
In the case of Live, that includes almost all the reputable VST instruments and effects out there.
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- KVRian
- 1302 posts since 9 Oct, 2003 from California
Interesting point. Maybe you have identified the problem area. I was going to respond that I typically do use multi-output - but it's not true. (Actually I do in Cubase but not in Live) In Live, I generally have mulitple instance of SS2 or ST2.1 each may have 1-4 "instruments" but rely on Live's routing rather than IK's.EnzymeX wrote: Just curious: Are you using Sampletank extensively in multi output mode?
What I mean is I'll have an instance of ST2.1 on let's say midi track 5. Inside ST2.1 I'll have multiple instruments in slots 1,2,3 &4. The midi driving those instruments will be in Live track 5,6,7,&8 using Lives routing. Out of Sampletank, however, they are all beibng delivered to output 1&2.
Hope that makes sense. It sounds confusing when I read it and I know what I mean.
Dan
Those that can, do. Those that can't, argue about it on k-v-r
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- KVRist
- 227 posts since 27 May, 2004
Headquest,
I do remember those P5 threads. Please keep in mind that four out of five of those threads had to do with crashes resulting from loading certain sounds made for Sampletank 1, into Sampletank 2
In fact, when I first got Sampletank, I had to go through and isolate all the problem patches into a folder called "ST1 only" (A group buy through Sonic Reality resulted in a lot of folks getting these incompatible components - I was one of them).
Since having done that preparation work, I have had a solid system running Sampletank and P5. However, running Sampletank 2 inside of Live 5 remains consistently problematic: I have never finished a complete session without losing some degree of control over Sampletank.
I may be wrong, but my gut says I have too many versions of Sampletank loaded (v1, v2, v2.1), and that Live "Sample-Tanks" trying to keep track of all those different IK copy protection schemes along with it's own overhead.
I do remember those P5 threads. Please keep in mind that four out of five of those threads had to do with crashes resulting from loading certain sounds made for Sampletank 1, into Sampletank 2
In fact, when I first got Sampletank, I had to go through and isolate all the problem patches into a folder called "ST1 only" (A group buy through Sonic Reality resulted in a lot of folks getting these incompatible components - I was one of them).
Since having done that preparation work, I have had a solid system running Sampletank and P5. However, running Sampletank 2 inside of Live 5 remains consistently problematic: I have never finished a complete session without losing some degree of control over Sampletank.
I may be wrong, but my gut says I have too many versions of Sampletank loaded (v1, v2, v2.1), and that Live "Sample-Tanks" trying to keep track of all those different IK copy protection schemes along with it's own overhead.
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- KVRist
- 227 posts since 27 May, 2004
Got it. I was also using multi outputs 3/4, 5/6, and 7/8 as well as multi input. Seems simple is better...dgkenney wrote:Interesting point. Maybe you have identified the problem area. I was going to respond that I typically do use multi-output - but it's not true. (Actually I do in Cubase but not in Live) In Live, I generally have mulitple instance of SS2 or ST2.1 each may have 1-4 "instruments" but rely on Live's routing rather than IK's.EnzymeX wrote: Just curious: Are you using Sampletank extensively in multi output mode?
What I mean is I'll have an instance of ST2.1 on let's say midi track 5. Inside ST2.1 I'll have multiple instruments in slots 1,2,3 &4. The midi driving those instruments will be in Live track 5,6,7,&8 using Lives routing. Out of Sampletank, however, they are all beibng delivered to output 1&2.
Hope that makes sense. It sounds confusing when I read it and I know what I mean.
Dan