What sets various sequencers apart?

[padawan learner]

Right, so I've been a ProTools user pretty much since I got involved in this business (all of about 2 years ago). I swear by it and use it for all aspects of music production including midi sequencing (I know there's better sequencers out there for this). Protools is undoubtedly the Pro industry standard, but some of the engineers I've worked with in the past will use Logic, Tascam GigaStudio or Nuendo for various aspects of their work, but will nearly always record to ProTools.
My question to all you disciples of various sequencers is this:

What sequencer do you use, what type(s) of music are you involved in, and what (briefly) sets it apart from other sequencers for you?

It'd be great to hear from a
Nuendo/Cubase user
Ableton user,
GigaStudio user,
Logic user,
MOTU Digital Performer user,
Cakewalk user,
and, of course,
ProTools users.

Cheers and thanks.

[dougsyo]

Right now, my tools of choice are Sonar and FLStudio, depending on my mood and what I'm trying to accomplish. I play around with electronica and trance, but I also write arrangements of CCM/P&W songs for use at church.

To me, FLS is straightforward to work with, and it has a superior piano roll. It's easy to swap one instrument for another and automation, MIDI remote control,etc are easy to use as well. If I'm starting from scratch, this is what I'll usually use. Secondary MIDI tracks for multitimbral synths are only a little harder to work with than regular synths, and I don't use them often. Lifetime upgrades on the base product is a plus - although some whine when Image-Line releases a new add-on synth. I started off with 3.56 and am now using 6.08producer (the only upgrade I've had to pay for, and if I didn't want the audio/mixer enhancements I could've stayed with fruityloops edition).

I use Sonar if I'm doing "linear music" as opposed to loop-ish. I also use it for recording or editing MIDI files, or polishing an audio file up (that may have originated in FLS, Sonar, or elsewhere). I use Sonar's "staff view" regularly. I must be fortunate, I don't have the "VST adapter" problems that some people have. Understanding why a synth required both an audio and a MIDI track took some getting used to, but it makes sense now. I started off with Home Studio 2002 and upgraded several times. Upgrades are reasonable and there's often a special offer if you wait long enough.

They serve different, complementary purposes for me. I've tried others (Acid, Tracktion, Project 5, Musys, etc) but they just didn't work for me, probably because I established my habits on FLS and Sonar.

Neither has intrusive copy protection - very much a bonus

Doug

[DevonB]

GigaStudio is not a host, it's a sampler/sample playback engine.

I use Cubase. Why? Because at the time I got into SX1, there was nothing else like it on the PC. Sonar has now come a long ways though since that time. I was also abandoned by EMagic when Logic went Mac only. Logic was too fiddly with too many hidden options for my taste. Cubase is a bit more straight-forward to me. But, give me any host, and I can write music in it. Still, host programs are a big investment in cash, so hopping around is a bit expensive.

Devon

[headquest]

Ableton Live.

My guess is that you already know some stuff about this, but here goes...:

The thing that originally set Live apart from other sequencers was the "gapless audio" engine, which allows you to edit, add effects, etc live in real time without audio dropouts. Many well known users, including top name artists, picked up on the fact that with Live they could take a laptop on stage and compose/jam/rearrange tracks on the fly as part of an actual live performance.

Ableton's innovative "Warp markers" allow you to alter the rhythm of audio files (again, on the fly!!) accessing its five different timestretch algorithms.

Since version 4, Live has also supported MIDI sequencing, and treats this much the same as audio. In fact, ProTools' recently implemented "instrument tracks" copied the Ableton implementation (the two are basically linked business-wise through the parent group Avid, who own Digidesign and M-Audio, Ableton's distributers.)

[padawan learner]

Doug, how does one go from electronica trance to church music? If that's not versatile I don't know what is! My understanding of FL was that it was (obviously enough) a loop and midi based programme. Bit of a musical toy in other words. Can you record audio into it?
I'm guessing FL Producer is a much more advanced package than FL itself? I like the idea of the lifetime upgrades (not something digidesign would be too quick to impliment!). I guess if you get use to anything from early on and find that it works for you or that you can get the best out of it then that should be enough. I just always found the interface with most other sequencers a little cluttered and not quite as logical as ProTools.

Devon, cheers for clearing up the GigaStudio thing for me, but isn't there 2 separate programmes, 1 called GigaSampler and 1 called GigaStudio?!? Could be getting my wires crossed here! Dabbled with Cubase SX for a bit and just always found the interface (especially the mix window) too cluttered or something. Yeah, unfortunately sequencers are too expensive to go hopping from one to another but also it can take a lot of time and effort (AND PATIENCE), to navigate your way around them properly. You could spend a week or two (and alot of money) using it and then decide it's not for you.

Just told the 2 engineers here about your Flower analogy for Logic. They laughed. I'm pretty sure it was in agreement.

[padawan learner]

Headquest, didn't know any of that to be honest, other than the fact that Live was the popular choice for the gigging musician. Still having problems imagining how it works in a live environment. I mean, doesn't it essentially do the same thing as ProTools? Forgive my ignorance here!

[bugs]

MIDI

[headquest]

Headquest, didn't know any of that to be honest, other than the fact that Live was the popular choice for the gigging musician. Still having problems imagining how it works in a live environment. I mean, doesn't it essentially do the same thing as ProTools? Forgive my ignorance here!

Hi again. No, it's not the same thing at all. PT is designed as a studio production and post production tool - Live is designed around more spontaneous use.

WIth most sequencing hosts, if you tried to add insert effects on a channel while the track was playing, there would be a danger of audio dropouts, etc. With Live, the gapless audio ensures this does not happen. You can add and edit effects, create new tracks, import audio and have it automatically timestretch to fit the project tempo - ALL while the music plays on without risk of problems. This is what makes it ideal for musicians onstage.

The other big distinctive is perhaps Live's "Session View". This is the main work area, and is set up as a grid in which mixer channels are vertical and song sections ("scenes") are horizontal. The squares of the grid can be filled with any mixture of audio and MIDI clips (suitable for the mixer channel you drop them on, of course). Any clip can be launched individually, or whole groups (the "scenes") can be launched together. In practice this means that if you are using backing tracks or electronic elements in a stage situation, you can adapt the structure of the song spontaneously, all without audio dropouts. Jazz musicians and those who improvise in their live performances naturally love this Session View layout, as it allow them to do stuff that would be impossible using a conventional DAW sequencer like Logic or Pro Tools.

Here's a link to a short video clip featuring beatbox supremo Kid Beyond (and some other good clips too - they may interest you I hope!). I'm hardly a fan of this kind of thing but it's certainly interesting, educational and entertaining - it will give you a good idea of what I'm trying hard to explain!

http://www.ableton.com/pages/movies/movies?type=artists

But Live goes well beyond stage use. Whatever you do in Session View can also be recorded into the song arrangment, which is a more conventional track timeline view. In the Arrangment View you can also record multitrack audio, sequence MIDI, draw or record automation curves, sync to Quicktime video, etc, just as in any other full-featured sequencing software.

For me, I don't use Live as a performer, but I love the way it enables me to work out arrangments while listening to the results in real time, rather than simply moving blocks around the screen as with other sequencers.

Cheers.

[Lance]

It'd be great to hear from a
Nuendo/Cubase user
Ableton user,
GigaStudio user,
Logic user,
MOTU Digital Performer user,
Cakewalk user,
and, of course,
ProTools users.

Cheers and thanks.

You have not included Orion and eXT on your snobbish elitist list. So I will not answer to your questions.

My elitism ends at Samplitude V8 SE.

[dougsyo]

Doug, how does one go from electronica trance to church music? If that's not versatile I don't know what is! My understanding of FL was that it was (obviously enough) a loop and midi based programme. Bit of a musical toy in other words. Can you record audio into it?
I'm guessing FL Producer is a much more advanced package than FL itself? I like the idea of the lifetime upgrades (not something digidesign would be too quick to impliment!).

Trance & electronica are stuff I play with, write, enjoy, throw away, etc.

The CCM/P&W mostly uses sampled instruments, but sometimes a synth line can fit. Sometimes it's to help someone learn an unfamiliar (to them) song, other times it's backup music for service (when the music director is on vacation, for example).

Just told the 2 engineers here about your Flower analogy for Logic. They laughed. I'm pretty sure it was in agreement.

That's based on a statement by Spock in the episode I, Mudd for Star Trek:TOS.

Doug

[stag]

SX because its automation just gives me a hard on. well
other features just make me melt.

[padawan learner]

Headquest: Nice one dude. That pretty much puts it into perspective for me. Can't imagine I'd have much room/need for it in my set up at this juncture. But I know those dropout's your referrin to and they are a bit of a pest.

Lance: Apologies dude. Just couldn't remember anymore sequencers.

Doug: More of a TNG baby myself. Showing your age there bro! But cheers for the input.

Stag: I'm worried dude. If it's hard-ons you're lookin for get onto www.dirtyrhino.com. Although I will admit to being slightly aroused by Stylus RMX and BFD when I first got them.

[keyman_sam]

I use Energy-xt now. What i find attractive in energy-xt is being able to tab almost any component i want. So, i can devote the entire screenspace to some VSTs, or perhaps the mixer, or just the sequencer alone. EIther way, its easy. Plus, i dont have to scan VSTs, and it also lets me freeze tracks. The drag'n'drop VST thing into midi track is easy to use. No frills. Its easy to record audio into it. (just arm and go).

The best thing about Ext (to me) is the modular approach. I can have two sequencers with 50 plugins (25 in each). Normally my CPU wont be able to handle that much. So, i can disconnect one sequencer whne i dont use it, and use the other sequencer as my "main sequencer". Then, i can disconnect the main sequencer and use the other sequencer for things like making beats, stutters, experimentation with effects, etc, and then rendering it to audio so i can use it in the MAIN sequencer. Saves CPU, screenspace, and is easy to use.

FWIW, i havent even TOUCHED (afraid to even LOOK at) Ext's arrangement features, and its sampler, or ext vst itself. I tried using ext vst and the sampler once, but thats it. I'm yet to explore ext's arranger and see what it does.

[rockstar_not]

You didn't mention Tracktion in your post - probably not expensive enough to be taken seriously (but don't tell anyone).

The workflow of Tracktion just makes total sense to me and seems like a natural extension of my music thought process. It's the first host that felt that way to me.

I know it frustrates others so your mileage may vary.

I'm just really glad it's there because I look forward to using it, whereas other hosts I've tried seemed like going to the school principal's office. You never know if it's going to be good news or bad news.

I bet I would like eXT as well, but I haven't found the need to try it yet.

-Scott

[dougsyo]

Doug: More of a TNG baby myself. Showing your age there bro! But cheers for the input.

I'm not THAT old, I never saw a TOS episode first-run, at least.

Doug