All new MacPros are quads!!

[whyterabbyt]

The acceptable practice is to round up if the value is equal or greater than .5. I belive both 2.7 and 3.6 qualify, particularly in the context of "3 or 4", which is precise only to within a tolerance of around 33% in the first place. Jesus H. Christ, how hard is it for you to add up!?!

The acceptable practice is to round to a value, or to place something in a range of values. Not do one, then the other.
Jesus H. Christ, how hard do you have to bullshit to try and avoid admitting you're wrong?

[spaceman]

I think for the first time ever Apple has delivered a machine that's worth it's money

[Ocean Zen]

Amen

[machinesworking]

My old computer, a Dell Inspiron 8200 has started to completely fall apart (motherboard has started to fall apart, DVD drive refuses to read DVDs). Dell Support isn't being helpful at all - even after I tell them what the problems are, they ask me to go over some steps which don't tell me anything, and then try to get me to do the same thing over again.

You really can't fix your own computer? Seriously? A new DVD drive is about 40 bucks.

Right, so Apple fail to offer the superior customer support of Dell, but when somebody complains that Dell is not coming through, you dog them for not fixing it themselves. Further proof that you just hate Apple, and can't see clearly about any issue regarding that company at all.

I'm willing to bet that current Shake customers get a drastically reduced price on the upgrade to "Phenomenon", Apple's replacement. the track record for that is there.

Also, all this talk about buying OEM HD's and RAM, why? You can always find better deals third party. You can easily buy 320Gig HD's and cheaper RAM third party, and it takes about a minute to instal.

Like I said earlier in this thread, talking to you about Apple is like talking to an ex Netscape employee about Microsoft!

[egbert]

My old computer, a Dell Inspiron 8200 has started to completely fall apart (motherboard has started to fall apart, DVD drive refuses to read DVDs). Dell Support isn't being helpful at all - even after I tell them what the problems are, they ask me to go over some steps which don't tell me anything, and then try to get me to do the same thing over again.

You really can't fix your own computer? Seriously? A new DVD drive is about 40 bucks.

Right, so Apple fail to offer the superior customer support of Dell, but when somebody complains that Dell is not coming through, you dog them for not fixing it themselves. Further proof that you just hate Apple, and can't see clearly about any issue regarding that company at all.

C'mon Mac - remember the point about Dell consumer support (=crap) vs Dell Precision workstation support (what Bones was talking about with his laptop)?


The original point was Apple don't offer a higher tier of support to pro users who need it for their business. Whytie's 8200 is the usual consumer POS so he is talking to a burger flipper in Bangalore (what they made patties out of before working is software support I shudder to think) who asks you to check that it is switched on and if that doesn't work you'd better reinstall windows ... again.

[machinesworking]

My old computer, a Dell Inspiron 8200 has started to completely fall apart (motherboard has started to fall apart, DVD drive refuses to read DVDs). Dell Support isn't being helpful at all - even after I tell them what the problems are, they ask me to go over some steps which don't tell me anything, and then try to get me to do the same thing over again.

You really can't fix your own computer? Seriously? A new DVD drive is about 40 bucks.

Right, so Apple fail to offer the superior customer support of Dell, but when somebody complains that Dell is not coming through, you dog them for not fixing it themselves. Further proof that you just hate Apple, and can't see clearly about any issue regarding that company at all.

C'mon Mac - remember the point about Dell consumer support (=crap) vs Dell Precision workstation support (what Bones was talking about with his laptop)?


The original point was Apple don't offer a higher tier of support to pro users who need it for their business. Whytie's 8200 is the usual consumer POS so he is talking to a burger flipper in Bangalore (what they made patties out of before working is software support I shudder to think) who asks you to check that it is switched on and if that doesn't work you'd better reinstall windows ... again.

Well if you guys actually used the Apple support system, you would know how to get through the tiers, and it is a tiered system. Basically if you do not know dick about your computer or software, you get a level one guy, and you get refused arcane requests. These people end up on forums like this one dogging the support they got..... On the other hand I've had Apple repair under warrantee paint chipping damage that in their official statements they said was normal wear and tear, I've gone through to the third tier in support for Logic in minutes etc. basically if they know that you know what you're talking about, and you don't back down, they get you the help you need. Also the original point was that dells customer support was vastly superior in every way, period. I seriously doubt that Apple's tech support for businesses running Xservers is level one.

Here you are calling Whytie's laptop a POS, and truth be, if he had bought an ibook, mac mini, or macbook, explained his problem well, and needed a higher level of support, he would have gotten it from Apple. In many ways this whole comeback leaves big bad apple, and their pricey support looking better.

Basically, it gets old the people here constantly dogging Apple like somehow they are worse than other companies, even when the evidence simply doesn't bear that out.

Like I've said before, dog them for things that make sense, like the video card selection, or that you can't build your own mac from scratch, to some degree for the AU format, anti competitive behavior with Logic and FCP, (as in competing too closely with mac software developers, the whole "they should make windows versions, is BS IMO) etc. All those make sense, but dogging them for customer support, the price of hard drives from the Apple store, and at this point for price in general, is pretty silly IMO.

[Kim Olesen]

You are all aware that you can buy any serial ata drive and install it in a mac pro? I would never buy a HD from apple (because i do think it's overpriced....and yes i'm an apple user) I would ofcourse buy the mac pro with only one HD and buy another myself and put it in. It's as easy as in any pc. So what's the fuss all about?

[egbert]

Also the original point was that dells customer support was vastly superior in every way, period.

I doubt if there is anyone on the planet who thinks that and no claim of that nature was made in this thread. For consumer level hardware Dell offers Bangalore grade support - there are numerous tales of woe. You could read this if you want a few laughs:

http://www.tedperlman.com/articles/chapter4-dell.html

Here's what was actually said by Bones in this thread:

If I buy an HP or IBM workstation I get dedicated support from the workstation branch of their business which is serious, minimum down-time, on-site support. With Apple you are at the whim of the guy you bought it from which is why I think their penetration into the serious pro market is so small.

When you buy a Dell Precision laptop you get 3 years of next day, on-site parts and labour standard. When you buy a MacBookPro you have to take it back to the guy you bought it from to get it fixed. He'll look at it and then ship it back to Apple if it requires more than a reboot. How long do you think you'll be without it?
If I want to pay a few hundred extra I can have my Dell support extended to anywhere in Asia where I travel. So if my M90 krapped out on me today, here in Taipei, someone would be out to fix it tomorrow, so I might miss one appointment. If it was a MacBookPro I would have to wait until I got home next week and hope Harry knew what the problem was when I fronted up to his shop. In the meantime I would have to cancel the rest of my appointments here and in Hong Kong.

As you can see he is talking about how hardware problems are handled and is not really emphasising Dell as a model of excellence - for a start he is talking IBM and HP for workstations. It was just in the case of his Dell Precision M90 laptop where he can get onsite support from Dell and even have that extend to SE Asia if he decides to pay extra for it. The Precision models are similar to the Latitude/Inspirions but come with higher grades of graphics options and more pro level support and they cost more.

I don't deal with any of these companies beyond buying the odd monitor - I build my own boxes from selected bits. If something goes belly up I return it to the local vendor if it is still in warranty or replace it. I am in a big city with lots of cheap hardware sellers so this involves a quick trip and then I just get on with my work.

In the last eight years I have had to replace one motherboard with the infamous bad Taiwanese clones of Jap caps, and an inexpensive Nvidia video card I bought to use while my trusty old Matrox G200 was fixed under warranty.

I had one new Seagate Barracuda ATA drive that wouldn't format and was replaced the next day. That's all. My machines are all still ticking away. Even my box full of Deathstars is still OK allthough it doesn't get much work these days. The only time I am forced to deal with online support is with any issues with laptops (which are not my primary machines and the old Tosh Satellite I use is incredibly stable) and with my monitors.

The new dual Woodcrest machines are interesting because they are so fast you can run RME hardware at 32 sample buffers and still do real work. For edrummers or people doing software monitoring that is truly impressive stuff. If Apple price theirs competitively they should do well.

[BONES]

Apple has "Core" technologies (CoreGraphics, CoreAudio, etc.) that do a lot of cool things in real time. The CoreGraphics stuff relies on "high-end"/prosumer video cards.

If that is true, why don't they ship their boxes with those kinds of cards?

proof that you just hate Apple

I don't just hate Apple, I hate a lot of other things as well.

I'm willing to bet that current Shake customers get a drastically reduced price on the upgrade to "Phenomenon", Apple's replacement. the track record for that is there.

And I'm willing to go you double-or-nothing that Phenomenon will not be seen by any mainstream Shake user as a suitable replacement. I think they'll be doing something more along the lines of "Motion Pro" as a bundling opportunity to take on the Adobe Production Suite, further shoring up FCP's position.

Also, all this talk about buying OEM HD's and RAM, why? You can always find better deals third party. You can easily buy 320Gig HD's and cheaper RAM third party, and it takes about a minute to instal.

As I said earlier, once you open that door I can build an entire PC from scratch and make Apple look even more ridiculously expensive.

Like I said earlier in this thread, talking to you about Apple is like talking to an ex Netscape employee about Microsoft!

No its not, you just need to come up with rational arguments [but there are none, which is my point].
[quote="egbert... so he is talking to a burger flipper in Bangalore (what they made patties out of before working is software support I shudder to think)...[/quote]
Well I can assure you it wasn't beef. I take it you've never been to India, then?

Also the original point was that dells customer support was vastly superior in every way, period.

I doubt if there is anyone on the planet who thinks that and no claim of that nature was made in this thread.

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what I was claiming. I'd previously asked about the situation in the US but no-one gave a response so I just went with the local thing. I imagine that every company's telephone support is hopeless. After all, they have to be able to deal with my mother ringing up when whe can't work out where the "on" switch is. I wouldn't even bother.

[egbert]

... so he is talking to a burger flipper in Bangalore (what they made patties out of before working is software support I shudder to think)...

Well I can assure you it wasn't beef. I take it you've never been to India, then?

The lack of available beef in that locality would (fairly obviously, I would have thought) be the point of that admittedly lame attempt at humour. Bones - are you perhaps not the sharpest quill in the porcupine?

Calling phone support workers "burger flippers" stems from them being paid similar amounts and havind a similar grasp of IT. Compaq which used to deliver first class business support had their well trained and highly experience A teams trashed and replaced by what their former leaders/trainers termed "burger flippers" - purely for short term cost saving. These people would never have clapped eyes on the hardware they were supporting or have a clue about common hardware faults on specific models.

Also the original point was that dells customer support was vastly superior in every way, period.

I doubt if there is anyone on the planet who thinks that and no claim of that nature was made in this thread.

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what I was claiming. I'd previously asked about the situation in the US but no-one gave a response so I just went with the local thing. I imagine that every company's telephone support is hopeless. After all, they have to be able to deal with my mother ringing up when whe can't work out where the "on" switch is. I wouldn't even bother.

I have had pretty unimpressive experiences with Dell support. I got through one time to a woman with an American accent who seemed to understand what I needed by way of information and could find useful stuff in their database. I was trying to get recommendations for currently available AGP cards which would support 1920*1200 on DVI to drive a Dell monitor. Besides that one helpful person l encountered some bottom-of-the-IT foodchain ignorance which I would traumatize myself all over again should I relive it here.

[machinesworking]

As you can see he is talking about how hardware problems are handled and is not really emphasising Dell as a model of excellence - for a start he is talking IBM and HP for workstations. It was just in the case of his Dell Precision M90 laptop where he can get onsite support from Dell and even have that extend to SE Asia if he decides to pay extra for it. The Precision models are similar to the Latitude/Inspirions but come with higher grades of graphics options and more pro level support and they cost more.

Fair enough, Bones has stated in other threads that Apples support is vastly inferior to Dells, without stating that Dell offer better support for their more expensive lines.

The only hardware failure I ever had was an old Powerbase 180. not talking about that anymore, I realize that's insanely good luck.... not going to jinx myself.

The new dual Woodcrest machines are interesting because they are so fast you can run RME hardware at 32 sample buffers and still do real work. For edrummers or people doing software monitoring that is truly impressive stuff. If Apple price theirs competitively they should do well.

That's pretty dammed cool, I'm a keyboard/guitar player and I don't need that sort of performance at this time.

I'm fine with the 2.16Ghz macbook pro + dual 2.5 G5.... don't really need any more than that, probably until it breaks down honestly.
I was going to go PC on the desktop, but I was gifted the G5....

Odd question, but are there any restrictions on the networking in XP home that make it worthwhile to buy Pro? I'm probably going to be using ADAT between the macbook w/XP and the G5, but I would like to also move files between the two via ethernet with TCP/IP, does home have any restriction on networking that get in the way of this? They say Home doesn't have "Simple TCP/IP services", does that mean home can't connect to a simple ethernet network with a Linksys or what not? Seems it might be prudent to get Pro, simply because it's possible that Home doesn't play well with other operating systems in regards to things like TCP/IP.

[BONES]

Fair enough, Bones has stated in other threads that Apples support is vastly inferior to Dells, without stating that Dell offer better support for their more expensive lines.

Because its not relevant, given that "their more expensive lines" are still about the same price as a MacBookPro, even though they offer a lot of advantages like infinitely better graphics and higher screen resolution.

[machinesworking]

Also, all this talk about buying OEM HD's and RAM, why? You can always find better deals third party. You can easily buy 320Gig HD's and cheaper RAM third party, and it takes about a minute to instal.

As I said earlier, once you open that door I can build an entire PC from scratch and make Apple look even more ridiculously expensive.

Right, anything you can spec out yourself on an Apple is immediately disqualified because of your own personal feeling about Apple's lack of a DIY machine..... Talk about Dell, Compaq, HP etc. and spec the same machine, without adding unnecessary over priced hardware that you can add yourself, that's OK, but add Apple in and you MUST buy from the PC manufacturer.... that's silly.

Like I said earlier in this thread, talking to you about Apple is like talking to an ex Netscape employee about Microsoft!

No its not, you just need to come up with rational arguments [but there are none, which is my point].[/quote]
It definitely is!
I personally don't think arguing that Apple hardware is ridiculously overpriced by comparing it to hardware that does not have the same features is giving a rational argument. If you want to argue that the basic configurations offered by Apple don't match your needs, that makes sense, if you want to argue that buying all the hardware extras from Apple makes them overpriced, when nobody in their right mind buys hardware that's dead easy to instal like RAM and HD's from the OEM.... then you're just reaching for ammunition when you don't have any.

Shake, we can only guess what they do, not worth debating about IMO.

[BONES]

Maybe not for you but it has a huge effect on my job and my livelihood.

Right, anything you can spec out yourself on an Apple is immediately disqualified because of your own personal feeling about Apple's lack of a DIY machine..... Talk about Dell, Compaq, HP etc. and spec the same machine, without adding unnecessary over priced hardware that you can add yourself, that's OK, but add Apple in and you MUST buy from the PC manufacturer.... that's silly.

No, I bought everything for each brand from their shop, and to be accurate it was Apple and Boxx Technologies in this case. I did it to be completely fair and so that I would have a single point-of-contact for any warranty issues. I used what I thought was a reasonable spec for doing very high-end multi-media work and I actually over-spent on a few PC items to match the MacPro, just to be even fairer.
But if you want to buy anything you can from a 3rd party, which is what you're saying you want to do, then by applying the same rule to a PC, I can buy everything from 3rd parties, even warranties, and save a bundle.

I personally don't think arguing that Apple hardware is ridiculously overpriced by comparing it to hardware that does not have the same features is giving a rational argument.

I agree which is why in this case I matched every feature to the best of my ability. I even managed to spec better features on the Boxx and it still came out cheaper [RAID-0 for the system drives and a separate RAID-0 for data, instead of just buying drives]. And its all optimised for the work I would want to do with it, not just put together for a million different needs.

[machinesworking]

But if you want to buy anything you can from a 3rd party, which is what you're saying you want to do, then by applying the same rule to a PC, I can buy everything from 3rd parties, even warranties, and save a bundle.

The argument is whether the mac towers are competitive price VS features wise. HD's and RAM are items you can order from Dell, Apple, IBM, etc. at the minimum amount they allow in their machines, and spec out at reasonably priced outlets elsewhere. When HD's are sold at a premium by these outfits, it seems like it's unreasonable to spec them in to me, especially when Apple doesn't allow you to buy any less than a 500, and you want a 320 that's easily picked up somewhere else. They all add a stupid tax to people who do this IMO.
You can here in the states anyway, order a mac pro from a retailer like compusa, and get an extended in house warrantee from them, at a cheaper price, though I really can't say that I would, unlike others I've had really good luck with Apple's tech support.

Again, spec out a baseline boxx and pro with the same features, minus pricey HD's and RAM you can get elsewhere for almost half price in some cases and let us know what you come up with. I am starting to think that Apple AU is less competitively priced from what you say though.