All new MacPros are quads!!

[Borogove]

<i>As any car nut will tell you, a Lexus is precisely a Toyota under the skin - it just comes with different skin and a bigger pricetag. The Mac is now unarguably a Lexus. It is a Toyota (generic PC made in Asia) with a few fancy (largely cosmetic) features and a higher pricetag (despite the contention on this point TCO is going to be higher IMO). </i>

Not really, because there aren't any Lexus/Toyota model pairs which have exactly the same feature sets with which you can do an apples to apples comparison. The difference between a Mac and a non-Mac machine in the "same class" is that the Mac comes standard with things like gigabit ethernet and firewire and blah blah blah. If you prefer XP markedly to OSX and you don't need gigabit ethernet, you buy a Dell; if you need firewire and like OSX better, you buy a Mac, and you don't think you're some big huge brilliant hero for saving 10% of the cost in one case and you don't think you're filthy rich because you can spend an additional 10% in another case -- you buy the computer that's right for your needs.

[egbert]

@Machingesworking

Just a quick comment:
In your posts you are asking (not unreasonably) to be treated according to a standard of courtesy and no doubt you clearly believe that depature from the standard you hold is bad behaviour and others should refrain from it. And yet this standard is not codified into law.

When it comes to human behaviour on the forum you are interested in standards which aren't legally enforceable. So why then do you set corporations above human beings and say that they can do what they want and we shouldn't even criticise them here if they cannot be shown to have broken a law - for example If they have broken with good faith?

I find this sort of thing here often - Shaman and I were discussing it at one time. Why are corporations seen as being above a standard of behaviour we expect of one another? Afterall, a corporation is ultimately just a collection of people in various roles.

[egbert]

Not really, because there aren't any Lexus/Toyota model pairs which have exactly the same feature sets with which you can do an apples to apples comparison.

The Lexus/Toyota thing is about chassis and in some regards they are the same down to the bolts. In fact the similarities between a dual woodcrest Mac and a dual woodcrest Dell or HP are MUCH stronger.

The difference between a Mac and a non-Mac machine in the "same class" is that the Mac comes standard with things like gigabit ethernet and firewire and blah blah blah.

You are seriously out of date on PC specs. IEEE 1394 and gigabit ethernet are pretty much standard on most decent desktop motherboards and on server/workstation boards you would typically get Dual Giga Bit Ethernet.

Go to Asus.com or the Gigabyte site and see how many boards you can find which lack those features. Any board with sockets for 2x Woodcrest is a high end board and is likely to have more features than the MacPros - not less (eg more USB2 ports, overclocking features, multiple RAID setups, full user access to the BIOS etc)

The Dell and HP dual Woodcrests certainly have GBE and Firewire. When Apple speced GBE on the G5 that was a little ahead of the curve but there is nothing special about that now.

[keyman_sam]

As any car nut will tell you, a Lexus is precisely a Toyota under the skin - it just comes with different skin and a bigger pricetag. The Mac is now unarguably a Lexus. It is a Toyota (generic PC made in Asia) with a few fancy (largely cosmetic) features and a higher pricetag (despite the contention on this point TCO is going to be higher IMO).

Bullshit. We have a 1990 lexus LS400 and a 94 toyota corolla, and the two cars arent even close. Lexus is NOT a toyota under the skin. Its made by the same company, but its truly luxurious. If you've ever driven one, you'd know.

[egbert]

As any car nut will tell you, a Lexus is precisely a Toyota under the skin - it just comes with different skin and a bigger pricetag. The Mac is now unarguably a Lexus. It is a Toyota (generic PC made in Asia) with a few fancy (largely cosmetic) features and a higher pricetag (despite the contention on this point TCO is going to be higher IMO).

Bullshit. We have a 1990 lexus LS400 and a 94 toyota corolla, and the two cars arent even close. Lexus is NOT a toyota under the skin. Its made by the same company, but its truly luxurious. If you've ever driven one, you'd know.

I think the point the car nuts make is that the features added to the Lexus models are things like better seats, better sound insulation, different engines and different external skin. However the underlying engineering and basic parts in the chassis are similar. A BMW is engineered from the ground up to be a luxury car and has litle in common with an Opel. In any case I don't really give a shit - read my intro to the bit on cars. I think cars do not make good analogies to computers.

[machinesworking]

@Machingesworking

Just a quick comment:
In your posts you are asking (not unreasonably) to be treated according to a standard of courtesy and no doubt you clearly believe that depature from the standard you hold is bad behaviour and others should refrain from it. And yet this standard is not codified into law.

When it comes to human behaviour on the forum you are interested in standards which aren't legally enforceable. So why then do you set corporations above human beings and say that they can do what they want and we shouldn't even criticise them here if they cannot be shown to have broken a law - for example If they have broken with good faith?

I find this sort of thing here often - Shaman and I were discussing it at one time. Why are corporations seen as being above a standard of behaviour we expect of one another? Afterall, a corporation is ultimately just a collection of people in various roles.

Hey egbert, sorry for not replying to your other post toward me, I just basically agreed with you, and found it odd you thought there was a difference of opinion there.

I don't hold corporations as being capable of empathy about matters regarding money where they do not break the law. I know they are made up of humans, but people in large groups that have an agenda tend to revert to animalistic behavior in almost every case I've seen. Whether they break the law in this case, is the only way to judge them as right or wrong. I don't personally believe that it's for the best that capitalism makes that so, but it is. You have shareholders forcing you to squash the "enemy", and it's up to the CEO's and people on top to make sure that in the mad rush to destroy the competition and get the cash, no laws are broken.
I never said I thought that Apple for instance was doing what was best for people like you, just that at least they didn't break the law in order to do it. I don't agree with it per say, but I understand the logic of killing Logic PC. They don't sell PC's, they sell Macs. Selling software that ties into other software that is PC only, that prevents some guy using all that PC only stuff from wanting to voluntarily switch wouldn't really be that smart of a business move.
Also, and I'm sure you'll agree with me on this one. If you think that mac users are biased etc. think about Cupertino, you can be rest assured that everybody there drinks the Kool Aid!

They simply believe you'll be much happier using a mac!

We have to know this was deliberate, they could have bought Digital Performer if they didn't want to rock the boat. It's definitely not because Logic is so much better etc. I'm probably switching back to DP here pretty soon, I just like it better, it's really a great DAW.

[Lunch Money]

To say that Legal = Right is a false analogy because you can find examples in which laws are not right. Since it is a false analogy, the inverse is correct by default.. Legal != Right. Which was what BONES said. "Legal does not mean right."

The above sentences SHOULD be all that's needed to prove my point... and the fact that they're not is why I say that you're not "equipped" for the debate or in other words that we're not sharing the same language. It's not meant to be an insult, though. My girlfriend, a research scientist, tells me shit all the time that I'm not equipped to engage her on in any deep way, though of course we still have "layman's terms" talks about her work. I'm sorry you took it as an insult.

Greg

[Suspended In Dusk]

The car/computer comparison just doesn't work.

I know, it'll sound awfully silly, but I'd rather say computers are like hookers. And Apple's the biggest pimp in town... HE decides what she wears, what she does and doesn't do and how much she charges for it.

Or pick up an independent, dress her however you wish... In the end, the, uh, "result" is pretty much the same... You can even find better on the independent market...

And unless you really are one weird cat, none of them you'd bring out for a dinner with your parents (well, if you belong in the Mac user category, you probably would, but then...

For my own tastes, I think no Apple hardware, though really elegant and well built, matches my "sexy" and elegant black Sonata tower with it's blue lights. And OSX, though refined, looks kinda "gay" when compared to my customized XP. As for performance, well, I never ran out of track on this machine - and if I did, I could just upgrade a few components...

I told you - silly...

[machinesworking]

The above sentences SHOULD be all that's needed to prove my point... and the fact that they're not is why I say that you're not "equipped" for the debate or in other words that we're not sharing the same language. It's not meant to be an insult, though. My girlfriend, a research scientist, tells me shit all the time that I'm not equipped to engage her on in any deep way, though of course we still have "layman's terms" talks about her work. I'm sorry you took it as an insult.

I'm sorry, I thought you were interested in what I had to say.
Since you've decided that your debate/logic/philosophy skills are far too complex for me to grasp, I guess we're done?

A girl I went out with had previously gone out with one of my oldest friends David.
She was watching him and their new roommate talk, David my friend would basically try to school this guy in everything, debates etc about all kinds of little things. At one point the new roommate after listening to him make his point about some trivial matter of disagreement stated, " OK I guess I understand now. I'm not going to be teaching you much, but I'm going to learn a lot from you." David beamed and replied "Exactly!"
My girlfriend was so embarrassed for David.

Do you have any idea why?

[BONES]

The difference between a Mac and a non-Mac machine in the "same class" is that the Mac comes standard with things like gigabit ethernet and firewire and blah blah blah.

Pish-tosh! The list of standard features on my mobo is extraordinary - GigE, 7.1 sound, hardware firewall, external SATA, etc, etc. You're just not looking hard enough.

Bullshit. We have a 1990 lexus LS400 and a 94 toyota corolla, and the two cars arent even close. Lexus is NOT a toyota under the skin. Its made by the same company, but its truly luxurious. If you've ever driven one, you'd know.

You're not serious, are you? The last model Camry and the ES300 were, in every important detail, identical cars. The differences were purely cosmetic. BTW, did you know that "Lexus" is the Japanese word for "ugly"?

[BombJack]

Ultimately machinesworking, your argument isn't very good, and you won't admit to be wrong. That's the crux of it.
For all of Bones' vociferousness, his argument can be far more solidly supported, whereas yours is as leaky as a rusty old bucket...

Lunch money is def on the moeny with his points - it's irrefutable - and he may have a point about you ebing incapable of understanding.
You're very eloquent, but your argument sucks...

Can we now get back to the discussion about the machines? Are we in agreement that both Apple, and Microsoft are bastards?

[egbert]

Can we now get back to the discussion about the machines? Are we in agreement that both Apple, and Microsoft are bastards?

Of course. Bill and Steve - Pirates of Silicon Valley - they hoisted the Jolly Roger thirty years ago and are still at it, three sheets to the wind, cutlasses in their teeth to this very day. (The scurvy dogs!)

[BombJack]

Hahahahahahahaaha. Exactamundo.
Or are one of you bunch of self righteous gits going to come up with a new, shiny, morals friendly (and eco - can't forget the greenies) super computer? If not were stuck with these 2 formats...

[geekboy]

@ egbert

A computer is defined more by its operating system than by its provenance or generic parts.

(Plus, my point was Fords and GMs versus Japanese cars and European cars -- not your cliche about Toyotas and Lexuses.)

[egbert]

@ egbert

A computer is defined more by its operating system than by its provenance or generic parts.

(Plus, my point was Fords and GMs versus Japanese cars and European cars -- not your cliche about Toyotas and Lexuses.)

In most of my applications the operating system is more or less invisible beyond the conventions of menus and cursor/pointer control and file saving and recall - which were developed neither by Apple or MS and are more or less as they were on my Atari in 1988. The operating system only becomes an issue when I configure hardware or when something screws up. The 32 bit memory model has become a constraint but it seems we will be putting that behind us in a short while.

If you are running a DAW why would you want eye candy and a one button mouse? Most people turn off as much of that crap as they can in XP for example.