KVR Audio

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:40 pm

"There's no clicking, but there's a similar distortion to 1176 when the attack set too fast on bass heavy material, as it digs in on the waveform."

not a gate. you must be talking about an expander. two radically different things. an expander is an inverse compressor, while a gate is an envelope follower with a comparator gating an envelope connected to a vca.

the major thing that pissed me off about software 'gates' and the reason i wrote my own real gate is that a majorty of software calling itself a 'gate' is actually an expander or some convoluted rape/combination of different things.

if you have not noticed the point of the signal delay/lookahead of a gate, it is because you didnt know what it was for before now, test one again following my instructions. also make sure it is a gate and not an expander!

gate = boolean.

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:54 pm

*sigh* yes I know all that thank you for patronising. I thought I was clear I was talking about GAG-1. Yes it does the distortion thing. Yes it's a gate (and an expander). Yes it's quite obviously the stock standard envelope follower to mult scenario, but obviously with a twist that makes it sound good.

Let's wank more semantics. It's always such jolly good fun.

If your gate is based on your compressor algos (which I would say is very likely) then there's a good chance it's not very impressive, but before you get mad I'll have to make one thing clear: I know you do many of your plugins as utilitary devices (hence I understand your stubborn academic gate = boolean stance), but I will absolutely always be only interested in sound shaping devices.

All these seemingly utilitarian processes (your stance) are actually great sound shaping opportunities. If it's the sound we're talking about, even the utilities better sound great.

disclaimer: this is just my very personal preference.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:03 pm

This is typical 'hardcore-developer' versus artist discussion. I'm all in it for the music and the results, in the end I don't really care how it's done as long as I'm happy with the results.

Cheers!
bManic

Kiwburger · Post by **Kiwburger** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:53 pm

This is typical 'hardcore-developer' versus artist discussion.

Yea - I think you are right. As an artist, I just want a Gate that actually "gates" to digital black, without clicking. I'm not looking for an argument with any developer. As far as the rocket scientology goes, i'm sure Torben and Kingston are correct. I just want a gate that shuts. Do I really need to explain why? All other gates that I have goes to negative infinity. I don't care that analog gates are imperfect. I'm trying to avoid "imperfect", so why would I want a leaky gate?

I'm trying to integrate real drums with sampled drums. The samples obviously have digital black between hits. I want the artistic choice to use a gate that is capable of inserting digital black between hits too. Isn't that the definition of a Gate?? If I wanted an Expander, I would be looking for an Expander.

Debutante · Post by **Debutante** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:18 am

Kiwburger wrote:
This is typical 'hardcore-developer' versus artist discussion.
Yea - I think you are right. As an artist, I just want a Gate that actually "gates" to digital black, without clicking...

http://www.kvraudio.com/get/727.html

Get this plugin. You could hardly find a cleaner cut than this NO CLICKING WHATSOEVER!!! It's very simple, MIDI driven and extremely light on CPU... and free! You can also inverse your envelope if you want. And you'd have to look pretty hard to find a nicer cutting gate.

If you're looking for a sequencer of equal quality then I'd recommend another feebie called Scuzzphut 6.5 Lite. It's just as clean cuttin, takes MIDI, and allows you to create and save gating patterns which you can switch as you like.

Both these plugins are very simple, but from your post I understand that to be what you want. Either of these two will do nicely.

Kiwburger · Post by **Kiwburger** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:38 am

Thanks - that Klanglabs Microgater looks like a nice Midi gate with ADSR & invert.

I use a mixture of midi and real drums, so I was hoping for a multi-purpose gate, rather than a range of freebies with strengths and weaknesses. But it's hard to beat the freebies sometimes.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:18 am

it has nothing to do with "hardcore developer", it is a simple fact, the definition of the terms are:

gate) a boolean gate generated by some envelope follower and comparator triggering some form of envelope
compressor) a circuit which measures the amplitude of an input signal and generates through some process an envelope to map input amplitude to output amplitude non-linearly.
expander) a compressor circuit which applies 1/n, or the inverse of the typical modification to amplitude.

vastly different effects.

very important fact:

- a compressor followed by an expander which is it's perfect inverse will produce the original signal, all dynamics restored perfectly.

a gate is a completely seperate thing, unrelated to dynamics processing.
my gate could never be "based upon the compressor" since they're entirely different systems. i do not offer the option to do expansion in my compressor yet, but it will be renamed to "dynamics processor", and have a switch to switch between compress/expand in the next release.

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:42 am

I've come to like your gate, aciddose. It does what it says it does well, which is gating. And there are enough parameters on it to let you get creative with gating.

I'm not sure I agree with the artist versus engineer angle. I'm something of an anti-engineer, but base, utilitarian tools can be good for an artist because they serve a knowable function. I just don't want things that suck and perform their function poorly. But a gate to me is like a set of near-field monitors, anything but an accurate and uncoloured response would just get in the way.

Torben · Post by **Torben** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:45 am

Kiwburger wrote:
This is typical 'hardcore-developer' versus artist discussion.
Yea - I think you are right. As an artist, I just want a Gate that actually "gates" to digital black, without clicking. I'm not looking for an argument with any developer. As far as the rocket scientology goes, i'm sure Torben and Kingston are correct. I just want a gate that shuts. Do I really need to explain why? All other gates that I have goes to negative infinity. I don't care that analog gates are imperfect. I'm trying to avoid "imperfect", so why would I want a leaky gate?

I'm trying to integrate real drums with sampled drums. The samples obviously have digital black between hits. I want the artistic choice to use a gate that is capable of inserting digital black between hits too. Isn't that the definition of a Gate?? If I wanted an Expander, I would be looking for an Expander.

I simply not get you! You got two threads running, badmouthing Kjaerhus and our products for not working like you want. What is the point? If you want a simple bi-stage gate buy one the many gates that apparently suits your better. People choose GAG-1 for how it sounds, you apparently choose plug-ins based on some academically features which is fine by me as it is your music, but stop complaining about a product is not how you want it to be; if you can not use it then move on.

Torben

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:07 am

So, your gate actually leaks Torben? Real ones don't. They have a noise floor, sure, but passthrough/crosstalk would usually be unmeasurable when the gate is closed.

If that's actually the case, I'd say this fellow has a good complaint. Maybe he likes the rest of your features and just wants a rationale as to why it does that (if indeed it DOES do that.) Or, if it turns out there's no good reason, for you to fix it.

(Oh by the way, I just got the bad download error from your site again. First attempt was a partial file. Then successive attempts gave the same partial, as if your server's http headers aren't reporting the size. Then emptied my cache and tried again, and yes, now it's downloading.)

Testing...

Oh dear, it does leak. aciddose is right, this is an extreme expander, not a gate. Yeah, if I were you I'd consider revising my algorithm. (Oh, I see now it's labelled as a gate/expander... in that case, I'd say pick one. Or add a true gate feature.)

Torben · Post by **Torben** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:17 am

AdmiralQuality wrote:So, your gate actually leaks Torben? Real ones don't.

It does not leak. It has a range that goes down to -80dB. Why don't you tell Drawmer and all the other hardware vendors that this is a flaw when there range goes down to -80dB?, adn that there gates are not real gates

Torben

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:22 am

AdmiralQuality wrote:So, your gate actually leaks Torben? Real ones don't

irrevelent...Gag does exactly what it says it does, and if you consider -80db leaky then have fun finding a decent hardware gate.

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:42 am

Torben wrote:
AdmiralQuality wrote:So, your gate actually leaks Torben? Real ones don't.
It does not leak. It has a range that goes down to -80dB. Why don't you tell Drawmer and all the other hardware vendors that this is a flaw when there range goes down to -80dB?, adn that there gates are not real gates

Torben

Well, their http://www.drawmer.com/op201.html only has a -90 dB noise floor. So maybe they think -80 dB is enough? Also seems odd to me that their threshold control goes to -infinity. So you can trigger the gate with sounds lower in volume than the level you can attenuate to? (I'll admit that in normal use, it's already quiet sounds that you're blocking. But I was just surprised to hit the Duck button on a loud input, and still be able to clearly hear it! And I don't recall that behavior from any real world gates I've used)

Ah, here's a good one. http://www.dbxpro.com/1074.htm Depth knob on it goes to -infinity. Phew... thought I was crazy there for a second. But I guess you're right... the gates you're emulating only go to -80 dB. They probably cost a lot less than the DBX unit too.

(EDIT: Just checked and they're similarly priced! Yay DBX!)

Torben · Post by **Torben** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:56 am

It's an academically discussion that has no relevance in real life. It is just like when people complain they can not set a filter to 1.00kHz, but it will settle at 1.01kHz. It is not of any importance sound vice but some people hate to look at it.

Torben

Acid Mitch · Post by **Acid Mitch** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:57 am

It seems to me that the Drawmer gates and the likes,were designed to work with equipment that had a narrower dynamic range than the bit rates that most of us work at today.
Is this why a dynamic range of 80db is fine for some and not for others or am I barking up the wrong 'un?

Frustration with Gates