Apology to Torben - Kjaerhus

[Kiwburger]

Also a bit of frustration that Kjaerhus plugins in general are not working out for me, so my investement is pretty much wasted.

I can use them, I just don't like them anymore. Parametric eq's that can't be swept from 20Hz to 20kHz. 'Flagship' compressor lacking Mix and Sidechain. Also a bit clicky on fast rising transients, and generally not as nice sounding as PSP or Voxengo. A "Gate" that only ducks 80dB and can't go down to digital black. A modulated delay that can't be set accurately to the millisecond. Little things like that - any ideas?

Two Kjaerhus hate threads running at the same time, for what? I simply do not get it. Our products are the way they are; if you like they buy them, if you don't then don't. Our way of upgrading is as easy as can be for the customers. We want a web site for the users as well but this is to take some of the works from our hands; I do not see how this can be easier for the customers than getting an email.

The demo can be registered and the full version can run in trial mode, why? Because it makes it easier for us to maintain two versions as we can reuse most of the code that's why. Do we have to give a deep explanintion on our web site for these details? I do not think so!

Torben

Torben - you have publicly accused me of running hate threads against you, therefore I feel I need to respond to this publicly. I'm sorry if what I said (quoted above) has offended you, and I had no intention of this being "hate". A little confusion, frustration, disappointment - maybe, but not "hate".

Torben - you made some excellent products, both free and commercial, and I have frequently recommended your products in various recording forums over the internet. I expect you have profited a little from my enthusiastic endorsements of your products over the years.

I notice that Kjaerhus and Voxengo are the popular stars of KVR, and very few people say anything bad about your products. You must be benefiting greatly from this free publicity and advertising. Your competitors probably don't like they way you develop similar products at cheaper price either. But it is because you avoid Pace and iLock and Challenge/Response, and generally offer good value for money, that I use your products and constantly recommend to other people.

But as far as I know, you don't own KVR, and KVR is a public forum for discussing ALL plugins - the pro's, the con's, the good, the bad and ugly.

A good developer listens to constructive feedback from his customers. You don't have to listen, and I don't have to like or buy your products. There are still some free countries left, outside of the USA anyway.

So please - do not take my criticism about your products as "hate". It is simply weighing up the pro's and con's of your products, compared to your competitors.

I am fairly new to studio recording, so I don't have years of experience with high end analog hardware. I'm learning to use digital recording techniques, and over the last year or two I have got a lot more discerning in my taste and requirements. I am at a stage where I am realising the reason why certain plugins are very expensive, and why I need to look beyond the freebies and the cheapies.

If you are at all interested in keeping my business, and benefiting from my constant endorsements in other forums, then you might wish to consider my criticisms from a business perspective.

These are not personal attacks. Just observations about the limitations of your products. I see I am not the only one who is very frustrated by some of your fixed ideas. I just thought you might want to know exactly why I am leaving your products and moving onto PSP and SonicFlavours and other vendors that are giving me the sounds and features I now need.

I know that I probably approach things too academically. I'm the person who wants to set a filter exactly to 1000 kHz. If the knob is insensitive and has to display 1000.1 kHz, that annoys me visually, and distracts from my work. I just love the say SonicFlavours eq lets me type in the value - fast and accurate. I love the way I can sweep the filters from 20Hz to 20kHz. Your GEQ-7 sounds nice, but I can't sweep the filters full range, and this annoys me and distract from my work.

I like to use delays, and it frustrates me when I can't set a delay time to the nearest millisecond. It's a timing critical thing. I just love the way SonicFlavours delay lets me type in the exact delay in milliseconds -fast and accurate.

I'm especially frustrated that GCO-1 lacks side-chain and mix controls. If you had not promised this a long time ago, I would not be so disappointed. But I see you have continually chosen to ignore all users who have reminded you about your promise.

I could go on about other annoying details, but I don't believe you are that interested in what your customers think.

I will accept you advice - If I like your products, I will buy and recommend them. If I can find something better, I will move on.

Torben - I hope you understand where I am coming from. I don't hate you, or hate your products. I think they could be better, but I don't hate them. Everybody has to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages, and make their choice.

Sorry if I have offended you again - best of luck.

[Kiwburger]

The demo can be registered and the full version can run in trial mode

Oops - i've just read this again and now i'm totally confused all over again.

Let me get this straight: "The demo can be registered AND the full version can run in trial mode".

So the Demo is not the Full version, right?? But both look identical visually (because you re-use the same GUI). And both can be registered? But the Demo won't have the full features?

Can you not see how totally confusing this is? I can sort of understand how you have got into this predicament, because it would take a little extra work to make the Demo obviously the demo, and the Full Version obviously the Full Version. Maybe just add the words "Feature Limited Demo" to the demo?

I'm just saying its confusing, and will be one of the "con" factors when i'm deciding whether to buy your products.

[Reverse Engineer]

Man...You come right out of a comic book

[ATS]

so are you going to move on now and just keep talking?

[Improv]

Man...You come right out of a comic book

Just like Wile E. Coyote he keeps digging himself in deeper.

[dc12]

Also a bit of frustration that Kjaerhus plugins in general are not working out for me, so my investement is pretty much wasted.

I can use them, I just don't like them anymore. Parametric eq's that can't be swept from 20Hz to 20kHz. 'Flagship' compressor lacking Mix and Sidechain. Also a bit clicky on fast rising transients, and generally not as nice sounding as PSP or Voxengo. A "Gate" that only ducks 80dB and can't go down to digital black. A modulated delay that can't be set accurately to the millisecond. Little things like that - any ideas?

Two Kjaerhus hate threads running at the same time, for what? I simply do not get it. Our products are the way they are; if you like they buy them, if you don't then don't. Our way of upgrading is as easy as can be for the customers. We want a web site for the users as well but this is to take some of the works from our hands; I do not see how this can be easier for the customers than getting an email.

The demo can be registered and the full version can run in trial mode, why? Because it makes it easier for us to maintain two versions as we can reuse most of the code that's why. Do we have to give a deep explanintion on our web site for these details? I do not think so!

Torben

Torben - you have publicly accused me of running hate threads against you, therefore I feel I need to respond to this publicly. I'm sorry if what I said (quoted above) has offended you, and I had no intention of this being "hate". A little confusion, frustration, disappointment - maybe, but not "hate".

Torben - you made some excellent products, both free and commercial, and I have frequently recommended your products in various recording forums over the internet. I expect you have profited a little from my enthusiastic endorsements of your products over the years.

I notice that Kjaerhus and Voxengo are the popular stars of KVR, and very few people say anything bad about your products. You must be benefiting greatly from this free publicity and advertising. Your competitors probably don't like they way you develop similar products at cheaper price either. But it is because you avoid Pace and iLock and Challenge/Response, and generally offer good value for money, that I use your products and constantly recommend to other people.

But as far as I know, you don't own KVR, and KVR is a public forum for discussing ALL plugins - the pro's, the con's, the good, the bad and ugly.

A good developer listens to constructive feedback from his customers. You don't have to listen, and I don't have to like or buy your products. There are still some free countries left, outside of the USA anyway.

So please - do not take my criticism about your products as "hate". It is simply weighing up the pro's and con's of your products, compared to your competitors.

I am fairly new to studio recording, so I don't have years of experience with high end analog hardware. I'm learning to use digital recording techniques, and over the last year or two I have got a lot more discerning in my taste and requirements. I am at a stage where I am realising the reason why certain plugins are very expensive, and why I need to look beyond the freebies and the cheapies.

If you are at all interested in keeping my business, and benefiting from my constant endorsements in other forums, then you might wish to consider my criticisms from a business perspective.

These are not personal attacks. Just observations about the limitations of your products. I see I am not the only one who is very frustrated by some of your fixed ideas. I just thought you might want to know exactly why I am leaving your products and moving onto PSP and SonicFlavours and other vendors that are giving me the sounds and features I now need.

I know that I probably approach things too academically. I'm the person who wants to set a filter exactly to 1000 kHz. If the knob is insensitive and has to display 1000.1 kHz, that annoys me visually, and distracts from my work. I just love the say SonicFlavours eq lets me type in the value - fast and accurate. I love the way I can sweep the filters from 20Hz to 20kHz. Your GEQ-7 sounds nice, but I can't sweep the filters full range, and this annoys me and distract from my work.

I like to use delays, and it frustrates me when I can't set a delay time to the nearest millisecond. It's a timing critical thing. I just love the way SonicFlavours delay lets me type in the exact delay in milliseconds -fast and accurate.

I'm especially frustrated that GCO-1 lacks side-chain and mix controls. If you had not promised this a long time ago, I would not be so disappointed. But I see you have continually chosen to ignore all users who have reminded you about your promise.

I could go on about other annoying details, but I don't believe you are that interested in what your customers think.

I will accept you advice - If I like your products, I will buy and recommend them. If I can find something better, I will move on.

Torben - I hope you understand where I am coming from. I don't hate you, or hate your products. I think they could be better, but I don't hate them. Everybody has to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages, and make their choice.

Sorry if I have offended you again - best of luck.

I completely agree..+1

[kritikon]

I am fairly new to studio recording, so I don't have years of experience with high end analog hardware. I'm learning to use digital recording techniques, and over the last year or two I have got a lot more discerning in my taste and requirements. I am at a stage where I am realising the reason why certain plugins are very expensive, and why I need to look beyond the freebies and the cheapies.

Hmmm...merely an observation, but I'm coming at it from the angle of having alot of years use from older h/w and have only been into the DAW side of things for 5 years or so. Which is exactly the reason I veer towards plugins such as some of the Kjaerhus ones. Because for example his compressors do have the quality and some of the character of some decent h/w I was always used to. I've actually found that some of the flashy expensive ones don't sound as good. e.g. Waves (although that's possibly an unfair comparison, as you pay for whole bundles...probably an iundividual compressor is equivalent in price?) Anyway...I've always found Waves comps to be completely and utterly precise and lifeless. Characterless. Which for my personal useage, means useless.


Actually if you look at the price of some competitors...Kjaerhus aren't exactly at the budget end. But for the character they impart, they seem good value to me.

'Flagship' compressor lacking Mix and Sidechain. Also a bit clicky on fast rising transients, and generally not as nice sounding as PSP or Voxengo.

I'm pretty sure GCO does have a mix parameter. Can't swear to it, but I remember using the demo and using a mix parameter. If it doesn't, then it is quite an oversight, I'd agree...especially as GUP1 has it. GCO doesn't have the sidechain true...and yes, Torben promised to put one in at some stage. I remember him saying they still will at some stage...just not yet. Irresspectively...anyone who bought GCO1 bought it knowing full well that it is sidechain-lees at the time of buying. Torben has made no cover-up of that fact. He simply sells it for what it is. And anyone who buys it should do the same...not buy it for what it might be. That seems an odd way of looking at buying a plugin. I bought GUP1...I waited, and fortunately so, because I then had the choice of buying GCO1 with all its nice little extras, or GUP1 which has less, but has the sidechain. Or I can buy both. If a sidechain is a desperate number 1 must have in any compressor you own...then buy one that has it - I don't see why Torben should be criticised for not having one in GCO1. He simply loses sales from those people that want a sidechain more than they want a quality wideband compressor. It's your dilemma, not Torben's, I'm afraid.

CLicky on transients... I never found it so. GUP neither (and to all intents and purposes, GUP1 is GCO1 but with less frills. I really do suggest you might think of looking at your use of compressors rather than the compressor itself. It really does depend on what you use the compressor on and how you set it. I have many VSTi that sound fine on their own...but compress them and you suddenly start to hear the clicks at the start of percussive notes. And investigation has shown me without any doubt whatsoever that it's the VSTi, not the compressor that produces the click. Then you look at a compressor, and if you set it wrong, the very nature of compressors will make transients clicky - that's exactly what transients are. Very short but loud clicks!

I notice that Kjaerhus and Voxengo are the popular stars of KVR, and very few people say anything bad about your products. You must be benefiting greatly from this free publicity and advertising. Your competitors probably don't like they way you develop similar products at cheaper price either. But it is because you avoid Pace and iLock and Challenge/Response, and generally offer good value for money, that I use your products and constantly recommend to other people.

Yup. We don't say much bad about them, precisely because we've used lots of bad gear and plugins in the past. And Kjaerhus do the job quite favourably to most. I personally find them good value for money...but many don't. If you look objectively at Kjaerhus - a whole set of plugins from them, is not actually that cheap compared to some other s/w companies. If you buy a comp, limiter, Eq, gate etc you're not that far off the price of a Waves bundle.


And as for the gate thing. I'm on neither side there. In the real world...yep, a gate that goes down to -80dB is prefectly normal and acceptable; it never bothered me when I used noisy analogue studios - in the real world, it really doesn't matter. I do agree that this is the digital world though, and I also can't see why a digital gate shouldn't completely gate a source. But noise that you can't hear is still noise that you can't hear.
And aside from that...anyway, I've kept out of the Kjaerhus GAG1 threads - I personally could never get excited about any gate. It's a mundane tool that has very little creative use, generally, unless it's midi triggered. To me a gate is a gate is a gate and always will be. I'll perfectly happily use my Behringer gate until the cows come home. When I don't use that, then I'll use the Cubase audio tool. There is a limit to gear snobbery - and I personally draw the line at such a mundane tool as a gate.


I'm not trying to attack you here. But as you're saying you're developing experience in the DAW field...I just thought I'd tell you my perspective as to why I favour devs like Kjaerhus. It's precisely my experience that tells me to use tools such as theirs, when they suit. And really and truly...many faults in plugins can come from user error. I've done it myself. I've flamed some plugins and later found out I've actually used it badly, or I've missed something crucial.

And I do find in the s/w world some of us have a distorted view of products and buying thereof. You buy a piece of h/w - it either does what it says it does and works or it doesn't. If it's faulty, you get a new one, get it fixed or replaced etc. But the feature set and character etc is purely down to your own choice. If you don't like its sound, you try and sell it or use it where its character fits etc. You don't necessarily blame the manufacturer. If I buy an Eventide and I can't get it to sound like a Lexicon...I think it's my bad choice, not the fault of Eventide. But more and more I see comments that seem to assume that the developer is at fault for not constantly upgrading and updating and providing more and more features. When you buy a plugin - you buy it becuase at that time it does exactly what you want. I fail to see the connection that possible future upgrades is a sound reason for buying a plugin. It's not in any contract when you buy. You should expect it to work; you should expect bugs to be fixed. You shouldn't expect it to become something it isn't though.


Just my thoughts on it. You like Kjaerhus plugin character or not. Personally I like most of them. Personally I compare most of them favourably to even some good old h/w. Personally I don't equate them as the budget end of s/w FX, although for sure, occasionally you can get some stonking deals on his s/w.

I know that I probably approach things too academically. I'm the person who wants to set a filter exactly to 1000 kHz. If the knob is insensitive and has to display 1000.1 kHz, that annoys me visually, and distracts from my work. I just love the say SonicFlavours eq lets me type in the value - fast and accurate. I love the way I can sweep the filters from 20Hz to 20kHz. Your GEQ-7 sounds nice, but I can't sweep the filters full range, and this annoys me and distract from my work.

I really do agree with you there. Just so you see I'm not having a go for the sake of it. I've never particualrly liked the lack of accuracy in Kjaerhus dials. There are many times I've wished that I could type in figures. And initially I seem to remember Kjaerhus used ctrl for fine changes instead of shift...little things like that can be irritating. Their plugins are certainly not perfect. Sometimes it takes far too long to set a makeup gain exactly correct in their compressors. I do wish they'd change that. But it still boils down to the fact that their compressors sound so good that I put up with that. Same way as I put up with some h/w quirks - nothing is ever perfect, never has been and never will be to everyone.

And there is still the aspect of user knowledge etc. If you're right that GCO1 doesn't have a mix control...there are obvious ways around that. There are many classic old h/w comps that also don't have mix dials. So you devise a way of working around it if you like the particular character of that comp. And it's even easier in a DAW with so many channels to copy and paste and mix with, than it is in the analogue world. In fact...you don't even have to copy audio channels - you can do the trick with a live VSTi feed into a compressor. Simply use a send to a group with an insert comp and mix the two together; you don't have to duplicate an audio channel or duplicate an instrument, and it doesn't cost you any more CPU to bothered about. If a compressor is good enough to use, then you do thing like that to use it. On the other hand if you don't like the actual compressor character, then fair enough - it's simply not for you. It's very easy to be lazy in the DAW world and demand an instant fix for something that we can sort out ourselves with a little bit of thought. Used to have to do it years ago, and it doesn't kill us now either.

[kritikon]

I completely agree..+1

I mostly disagree...-1.

[dc12]

I completely agree..+1

I mostly disagree...-1.

cause you are not right...

[dc12]

Two Kjaerhus hate threads running at the same time, for what?

such a comunist statement!

[Kiwburger]

Thanks Kritikon - I learn a lot from your posts.

GCO-1 doesn't have Mix or Sidechain, despite promises. OK - when I bought it, I didn't know how important Mix or Sidechain was. And if Torben had never promised to add these, I would not be too concerned. But Torben has repeatedly gone on record saying that GCO-1 is the flagship compressor, which will have all the best features in one. He just says he hasn't had time, but he has released many new products since and has fielded constant complaints about this promise. It's not just me annoyed about this one. And we don't mind paying extra for it! That's the silly thing.

I agree - there is probably a degree of user error. I've learned so much in the last year about using compressors, of all types. One personal observation I can make about most software compressors (including GCO-1) is that the Autogain feature is usually waay excessive and leads to clipping/clicking. I have learnt to turn this off, and let the compressor "compress" - actually lower the level, rather than boost everything into distortion.

My comments about GCO-1 clicking on transients come from a torture test I did when I was evaluating the PSP MasterComp. I set up a loop that covered a blank bar, and then a bar of a midi drum loop. Then, I inserted various compressors and evaluated the effect when the audio first hits the compressor. I much prefered the way PSP MasterComp handled this - GCO-1 was a bit clicky - but on a different day, with different source material my choice might change.

No biggie - just a bit of feedback fwiw.

[kritikon]

I agree - there is probably a degree of user error. I've learned so much in the last year about using compressors, of all types. One personal observation I can make about most software compressors (including GCO-1) is that the Autogain feature is usually waay excessive and leads to clipping/clicking. I have learnt to turn this off, and let the compressor "compress" - actually lower the level, rather than boost everything into distortion.

I absolutely agree with you on that one.
I fail to see why any dev bothers with autogain on any comp. I haven't used a single one that, as you say, doesn't boost the gain so much that it usually even ends up clipping. It's a bloat feature that doesn't work.

I can see the reason for autogain, and would actually quite like it if it worked properly. All I want in autogain is for a comp to detect the absolute peak value at input stage and set the make up so that it is reproduced exactly on the output stage. For some weird reason they all seem to set the output autogain at 0dBFS. A weird thing to want to do in anyone's book. I can't think of any channel I've ever used in any host or on any board where I have wanted to mix at unity, aprt from the master channel. Maybe it's difficult to do within coding or detection - I don't know anywhere enough about coding to speculate. But it does seem to work so badly that it ain't worth using. Kjaerhus comps are no worse in that respect to the others though. They all screw it up completely.

[TotcProductions]

Two Kjaerhus hate threads running at the same time, for what?

such a comunist statement!

I suppose "Comunist" is different than "Communist"....if not, you obviously don't know what the word means.

I try not to get involved in these ridiculous threads anymore...but really, why did the OT not demo the products properly before he purchased? Also, if the OT is/was a customer, than these things should have been discussed with Torben in private via Kjaerhus Audio support, at least at first, rather than posted in haste and frustration; no? And two threads nonetheless...why could all of your concerns not be addressed in one post, if you felt so direly that you must post them? Your original postings had much more of a sarcastic/arrogant tone than you obviously realized....this one is no better, starting off with a disclaimer, and going along the same path. If you truly feel that your original intentions of 'criticism' were overlooked, try using smilies next time....that's the whole reason they're here in the first place....to help get the 'tone' of your post across to the world.

[IIRs]

I fail to see why any dev bothers with autogain on any comp. I haven't used a single one that, as you say, doesn't boost the gain so much that it usually even ends up clipping. It's a bloat feature that doesn't work.

The Mackie 'advanced' compressors that come bundled with Tracktion have a perfect auto-gain feature IMO. I agree that most compressors seem to use too high a reference level though, including the Kjaerhus ones.

[Sickle]

I want some...I want some...I want some peanut buttah...