Apology to Torben - Kjaerhus

[whyterabbyt]

Because Sonar is a Rewire host only, while Live can function as either host or slave. So...

Erm, just to point out that I didnt actually say anything about using Sonar as the slave... For example, cant P5 load Sonar instruments, and function as a Rewire slave?

The latter - so *most* of them can be accessed within, for example, FL Studio. Exceptions are GrooveStation, the Lexicon reverb and V-Vocal, all of which are fair enough as they were developed specifically for Sonar/Cakewalk anyway.

Thats what I thought. So actually they are 'open', they're just not 'convenient', if you see what I mean.

I think the issue I am refering to is when a plug exists in VST/DX formats, Cakewalk buy it up, bundle the DX version only, and then try to sell the VST version at a premium rate. It seems out of character for Cakewalk to do this, as they are generally a very generous and helpful developer.

Yeah, I find this odd as well. Although the price of the Sonitus bundle to 'non-CW' customers isnt any more than Sonitus actually sold it for is it? It is just bizarre that there's no discount for Sonar owners. (In fact I'd hazard a guess that there's more than a few Sonar owners who legitimately own the DX versions using the w*r*z version of the VSTs)

[headquest]

Erm, just to point out that I didnt actually say anything about using Sonar as the slave... For example, cant P5 load Sonar instruments, and function as a Rewire slave?

That's because P5 is a DX host - Live isn't. Live cannot host Sonar plugs as a DX host, nor as a Rewire host - so it cannot host Sonar plugs at all (except the 3 VST ones I mentioned already). On the other hand, Sonar can host not only its own plugs and VSTs via its wrapper, but also it can host Live's instruments via rewire.

Hence the statement that Sonar can host Live's bespoke instruments (via rewire) but Live cannot host Sonar's plugins (either via DX or Rewire). The original point is that Sonar's instruments are less accessible than Live's from within other software, even though Live's instruments are totally bespoke, rather than existing plugins they bought out.

Thats what I thought. So actually they are 'open', they're just not 'convenient', if you see what I mean.

They cannot be accessed by any other host except as DX plugins. Which rules out many hosts, including Tracktion and Live. (plus obviously the mac-only programs and PT).

Yeah, I find this odd as well. Although the price of the Sonitus bundle to 'non-CW' customers isnt any more than Sonitus actually sold it for is it?

To non-Cakewalk customers it's a very fair price imho. They are great effects, and the standalone package contains both VST and DX versions of the whole set.

In a vague attempt to relate this conversation to the original thread topic however, I would point out that in most situations I would prefer to use the Kjaerhus Golden effects I have instead of Sonitus

It is just bizarre that there's no discount for Sonar owners. (In fact I'd hazard a guess that there's more than a few Sonar owners who legitimately own the DX versions using the w*r*z version of the VSTs)

I think it is a strange one, and yes, I've no doubt it does encourage people down the w*r*z route. I did even receive a PM (on another forum) suggesting that option. But why should I succumb to dishonesty in order to use what is already mine...?

For the time being, koolkey's wrapper recommendation is the best option I have.

[egbert]

Let me spell this out: developers who make promises that they fail to deliver on in a reasonable amount of time lose respect from their customers. At no point has Torben admitted his failure to deliver on promises repeatedly made in public. A simple "sorry, I haven't had time" or "sorry, I promised that by mistake and it's not going to happen" would be sufficient. Lesson learned. No harm done.

I don't think you can have read every word of Torben's on this forum - I don't have a link but my recollection is that he has pointed briefly to the obvious issues (juggling a long list of priorities and trying to run a business) by way of explanation for the non-appearance of some refinements requested by users - eg GCO feature set update to include sidechain and wet dry mix.

Here's a recent post from RGC on the issues confronting his new employers ( Cakewalk ) which he gave in response to a thread on the apparent neglect of the RGC products of late. You will no doubt know that Torben is trying to port his plugs to Mac too so probably the factors Rene covers are the same ones impacting even harder on Kjaerhus's smaller cadre of developers. Voxengo have also been very quiet for 6 months while they make related preparations - MacIntel, VST 2.4, 64 bit OS etc. This year - with the MacIntel switch and the imminent 64 bit Windows is a bit of a Year Zero for the industry so perhaps you could just be thankful you aren't being taken out to the paddy fields, handed a hoe and told to feed yourself from the bare earth without so much as a sidechaining compressor for comfort

OTOH, don't believe I don't understand what you feel. While rgc:audio was in business, we deployed tons of updates to every product. We also released many freeware products, who allowed many users to have fun and make superb music with them. We created a fantastic community.

But that reality evolved into something else, where we have to deal with tons of new components which didn't exist for rgc:audio. The new instruments entered the retail channel, where they must be cross-platform and support VST/DXi, DXi64, RTAS on the PC, VST/AU/RTAS on the Mac. Then, Apple switched to Intel so all the Mac formats must be in PowerPC and Intel Versions. Then, ProTools moved to version 7. Also, Steinberg changed the VST spec to 2.4, abandoning backwards compatibility soon. Possibly this is not of your interest, but this tasklist can keep a full-size audio-company dev/QA team busy for a whole year or more. The good part is, thanks to this we can make much better products, reach more users, help them with their music regardless on what platform they choose.

[whyterabbyt]

That's because P5 is a DX host - Live isn't.

What is? Im not quite sure that Im following what you're talking about. Im aware of the fact that P5 is a DX host. Im aware of the fact that Live isnt. I'd like to know why that means you cant ReWire P5 to Live?

Live cannot host Sonar plugs as a DX host, nor as a Rewire host - so it cannot host Sonar plugs at all (except the 3 VST ones I mentioned already). On the other hand, Sonar can host not only its own plugs and VSTs via its wrapper, but also it can host Live's instruments via rewire.

You've already said as much, and I was already aware of it. But you're completely missing my point. I'll restate it again.

Can Live host Sonar's instruments via ReWire with P5, or some other ReWire slave with DXi hosting capability? If not, why not?

Hence the statement that Sonar can host Live's bespoke instruments (via rewire) but Live cannot host Sonar's plugins (either via DX or Rewire). The original point is that Sonar's instruments are less accessible than Live's from within other software, even though Live's instruments are totally bespoke, rather than existing plugins they bought out.

Why can Live not host Sonar's instruments hosted in some other Rewire slave with DXi functionality. Like FL, even (http://virtualturntable.fourstones.net/ ... udio-slave)

They cannot be accessed by any other host except as DX plugins. Which rules out many hosts, including Tracktion and Live. (plus obviously the mac-only programs and PT).

That doesnt mean they're not open though. 'Not supported by all hosts' is not the same thing as 'a closed plugin, like, say, FL's Generators, or the plugins Steinberg bundle with Cubase.

[headquest]

I'd like to know why that means you cant ReWire P5 to Live?

I don't have P5. I have Sonar and Live. Only you mentioned P5.

Why would I need P5 as well? I wouldn't buy P5 simply as a glorified wrapper for using Sonar's DXi's in Live.

[whyterabbyt]

I don't have P5. I have Sonar and Live. Only you mentioned P5.

Why would I need P5 as well? I wouldn't buy P5 simply as a glorified wrapper for using Sonar's DXi's in Live.

Sorry, headquest, Im at a complete loss to follow the changes in the focus of your posts now. You talked generically about being able to use Live instruments in Sonar.

A regular complaint people level at Ableton Live is that its instruments - Operator, Sampler, etc - can only be used in Live itself. I'm here to tell you that's nonsense - all of the Live 6 instruments can be used and sequenced directly from within Sonar 5 via rewire. But almost NONE of Sonar's instruments can be used within Live. So much for "open standard plugins"....

That wasnt you talking about what you could do with what you have available.

So when you said "But almost NONE of Sonar's instruments can be used within Live" I gave you a solution to doing exactly that that you went all around the houses to avoid accepting as a legitimate solution; first you assume I meant you need Sonar to do it, which I didnt say, then you tell me P5 is a DX host, which I sorta know cos I own the bloody thing, and now you're saying it doesnt count because you dont own P5. Dont talk about a 'regular complaint people level at ABleton Live' and then change the context on the fly to only reflect your own situation.

Hey hang on. I dont own actually own Live, so that means Live plugins cant be used with Sonar. Jesus.

Im not quite sure why you're being so f**king disingenuously awkward here, but f**k it. Ive given you a solution to something you say cant be done, which is orthogonal to something you said could. At no point did I try and mind-read the fact that you actually meant that you couldnt do it with the software you have, which is what I would seemingly have needed to do. Sod it, Im done.

[Kiwburger]

I don't think you can have read every word of Torben's on this forum - I don't have a link but my recollection is that he has pointed briefly to the obvious issues (juggling a long list of priorities and trying to run a business) by way of explanation for the non-appearance of some refinements requested by users - eg GCO feature set update to include sidechain and wet dry mix.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend these actions. But in keeping this thread alive, you are probably not helping Kjaerhus. Or maybe you are - advertising works, whether it's good or bad. And the other non-related discussions going on in this thread are just bumping this stupid thread to the top, repeatedly.

IMHO - and I may just be a crazy fool talking - a business is best based on repeat business from loyal customers. This he is not going to get from me. I've switched to PSP for compression, and MixComp, Vintage Warmer & MasterComp all have Mix and I really prefer the sound quality. PSP Neon is an amazing eq, but i'll probably buy the new SonicFlavours eq for mixing, because it sounds great, has low CPU and the GUI is fantastic. I like the way you can simply click on the handle, and type in a value. Many people have commented on the problems with Kjaerhus stuff in general as far as setting values accurately. Torben may be correct that it probably doesn't really matter whether a knob reads 1000 or 1000.1. He must not be as visually oriented as some other people. For me, and others, it annoys the snot out of me. I'm OK with his decision to make his plugins the way he wants to make them. I just thought he might want to know why i've moved onto what I consider to be better plugins. That's valuble marketing feedback. I guess I hope other developers will think about this issue - obviously SonicFlavours have, because I think their GUI is a joy to work with.

I don't think i've said anything other than my honest opinion about what I like and dislike about these plugins. Is it no longer acceptable to discuss the pro's and con's of various plugins at KVR??

I started this thread because Torben accused me of starting hate threads. I've apologised for this misunderstanding, because I do not hate Kjaerhus plugs - I like them and have frequently recommended them. But - i've needed to purchase other plugins from other vendors to get the features I need. That is what I meant when I said my investment in Kjaerhus products has been wasted. Nothing more or less. And it really was genuine disappointment to find that GAG-1 doesn't gate to digital black.

I personally don't appreciate the way Torben trys to make me look like a fool for wanting a gate to actually gate to digital black (like all other software gates on the market). I don't have to prove to anyone why I want this. You can prove to yourself that GAG-1 doesn't gate to digital black. It's my artistic choice to happen to want a gate to be a boolean gate. I don't need to be verbally abused for pointing out that GAG-1 is not a boolean gate, and that my expectations were disappointed.

So once again - sorry to have caused any offence, but I needed to explain that I was not starting any Hate threads.

Kjaerus products are what they are - let the buyer decide if they are suitable for their own needs. I don't need advice or sympathy or anything further. Nothing I have said can possibly "hurt" Kjaerhus. Any potential buyer can consider what I have said, and decide if this is important to them or not. Download the demo - listen with your own ears, see with your own eyes and buy if you like.

If anything - I have done Torben a huge favour by keeping his name and products in high profile. God bless Torben.

[jens]

The latter - so *most* of them can be accessed within, for example, FL Studio. Exceptions are GrooveStation, the Lexicon reverb and V-Vocal, all of which are fair enough as they were developed specifically for Sonar/Cakewalk anyway.

Thats what I thought. So actually they are 'open', they're just not 'convenient', if you see what I mean.

Sonar and Project5 are more 'open' when it comes to included plugins than any other host I know of...


I'm sure the reasons why some plugins do not work in other hosts aren't that they are developed specifically for Sonar but contractual ones as they are third party plugins - e.g. Cyclone always worked in other hosts...

[headquest]

Sorry whyterabbyt - I think we are talking at cross purposes. I did not initially understand that you were recommending purchasing P5 as a wrapper for Sonar's DX pluggins so I could use them in Live. Technically you are right I am sure (you always know your stuff!) but I should have picked up on your implication sooner. The fact is though, I would not be interested in P5 (even at the heavily reduced rate that Cakewalk have been trying to flog it off to Sonar users for). I simply don't like P5 (a matter of personal taste I am sure), and as somebody who owns Sonar, Live and Reason I don't think P5 adds anything that I wold find useful.

My comments about Sonar / Live compatibility were intended as just that - Sonar and Live compatibility. i.e. not forking out a pile of cash for yet another program that is otherwise useless to me. At face value, Sonar can control Live's synths (via rewire) and Live cannot control Sonar's (because it lacks DX support). That is both personal (as I don't own P5) AND generic (for everyone else who owns these two programmes, but not others). End of.

[jens]

They cannot be accessed by any other host except as DX plugins. Which rules out many hosts, including Tracktion and Live. (plus obviously the mac-only programs and PT).

they can - all you need is Console and unlike Rewire it offers full host integration like total recall, etc.

[egbert]

I don't think you can have read every word of Torben's on this forum - I don't have a link but my recollection is that he has pointed briefly to the obvious issues (juggling a long list of priorities and trying to run a business) by way of explanation for the non-appearance of some refinements requested by users - eg GCO feature set update to include sidechain and wet dry mix.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend these actions.

I don't think there is too much that needs defending frankly. I think you just got a little worked up about not much a day or so ago and now you are trying to put out that fire on your arse. You could perhaps try to stop running around in circles.

All I was trying to say is:
1) I think TL has made some comment here as to why he is working to a different timetable to the one you apparently expect. (so basically I don't buy what you're saying about him being unresponsive. )

2 ) I wanted to point out that the external factors affecting Kjaerhus are quite probably the same ones other developers like Aleksey Vaneev and Rene G. C have talked about on their forums - hence the repost of recent comments by Rene (which I used in place of some spiel of my own because he so obviously knows what he is talking about and he expressed it well.)

For some reason you ignored both of my points and restated a whole lot of stuff that you have already said. Several times.

Anyway - enough about this VST plugins crap - Why Kiwi burgers when Kakapo nuggets are so moreish?

[headquest]

all you need is Console and unlike Rewire it offers full host integration like total recall, etc.

Thanks for the tip jens. I don't know anything about console - is it some kind of freeware wrapper, or yet another program I would n eed to pay for in order to use what I already have the way I want to use it?

Also, would it allow me to automate the Sonitus parameters from within Live, or just have basic use of the effects like the ffx4 recommended by koolkeys already does?

Thanks.

[kylen]

...People that want to use DX plugins in Tracktion can do so, VERY easily...

Thanks to IIRs, koolkeys, kiwiburger and of course the notorious Mr. Torben ( ) I now know about a DX wrapper so I can drag Tracktion out by it's short and curlies and give it another go. I like having another option to Sonar5, and of course the Adobe Audition 2 upgrade is just scaring the hell out of me so here we go. What a wonderful thing to learn in a side-chaining thread!

[jens]

all you need is Console and unlike Rewire it offers full host integration like total recall, etc.

Thanks for the tip jens. I don't know anything about console - is it some kind of freeware wrapper, or yet another program I would n eed to pay for in order to use what I already have the way I want to use it?

Also, would it allow me to automate the Sonitus parameters from within Live, or just have basic use of the effects like the ffx4 recommended by koolkeys already does?

Thanks.

no, it's not freeware - it's about 50€ but imho well spent... (but there's a limited time (four weeks or so) fully working trial available)

automation is possible, yes, but just not with the Sonitus ones, as the DX-versions aren't automatable at all afaik...

[headquest]

it's about 50€ but imho well spent... (but there's a limited time (four weeks or so) fully working trial available)

automation is possible, yes, but just not with the Sonitus ones, as the DX-versions aren't automatable at all afaik...

Cheers for the tip Jens.

The Sonitus fx can be automated in Sonar using standard envelopes. Useful for the Delay and Modulator, for example.

But in any case, I think I will check out this software and see if its useful. 50euro isn't much.
Cheers.