KVR Audio

Alex Maier · Post by **Alex Maier** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:50 am

+1 bump

egarrard · Post by **egarrard** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:13 pm

james0tucson wrote:
benjamind wrote:If they are indeed lying, they ought to be kicked out of KvR forever and I really mean that.
It's certainly unreasonable to be suggesting a "kickban".

No, it's not. False advertising is punishable by law where I live. Coming on to KVR and raving about how great a product is, then turning out garbage is false advertising and should be punished in some manner.

Doing that kind of thing also helps make warez so popular. Who wants to listen to a great demo, them plunk down their money only to find they were lied to and the plugin sucked? With "try before you buy" out there, the buyer is encouraged to learn the real truth and find out if the plugin is worth their hard-earned money.

If it isn't the developer who started this thread, then they need to come down HARD on the person who did, especially when the plugin is taking so long to be released. This "It's great but you can't have it yet...nyah, nyah, nyah!" kind of thread is counter-productive. That's why we're seeing the arguments. They're putting a bad image of the product into the minds of people who might actually buy the thing.

And finally... "It's for piano players". No, when you record it, it's for the piano "listeners"! It doesn't matter how great the feel is, if the sound sucks, the plugin sucks. And if you want the great unwashed out here to buy your product, please don't let someone come in here and infer that we aren't good enough for it or that it's too good for us, all because we aren't beta testers. I might not be a master pianist but I do know what a piano is supposed to sound like. If this one does sound right, I'll buy it. That's the bottom line to me.

But...am I a good enough pianist to qualify as a buyer? Hmmm...

living sounds · Post by **living sounds** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:48 pm

I think it's crucial how an instrument responds, that's what makes it fun to play it after all. Even the highest end grand piano library I have tested couldn't remotely compete with a small but real (decently tuned) upright in my opinion. So a piano plugin that has the feel of a real one (or close) is very desireable IMHO. It may still not sound like one, but at least it's suited for composing and simply having fun, and that's where most vstis (not only pianos) lack if you ask me (but this has to do with the sound as well in most cases).

Gregjazz · Post by **Gregjazz** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:06 am

living sounds wrote:I think it's crucial how an instrument responds, that's what makes it fun to play it after all. Even the highest end grand piano library I have tested couldn't remotely compete with a small but real (decently tuned) upright in my opinion. So a piano plugin that has the feel of a real one (or close) is very desireable IMHO. It may still not sound like one, but at least it's suited for composing and simply having fun, and that's where most vstis (not only pianos) lack if you ask me (but this has to do with the sound as well in most cases).

From a Jazz pianist's perspective, the feel is especially important, because it directly affects your improvisation.

Of course, with any piano sample library you use, you are still limited to the feel of your keyboard itself. I use a Roland FP3, which has very good piano action, for a digital piano or synth, mind you. I have yet to play on a keyboard that feels like a real piano. They all have a plastic-y feeling, the keys snap up just a tiny bit too fast, and they aren't sensitive enough. For example, it's pretty easy to hit 127 on a keyboard, but on a piano you can't feel the boundary. Also, keyboards don't really have the amount of breakaway that pianos have. Also, try very lightly pressing down on a key. On a real piano, there's the area where it snaps down a tiny bit with a tiny bit of pressure. I haven't played a single keyboard that does this.

And I'm not taking a MIDI grand to my gigs, that would defeat the purpose. One thing that does make a bit difference, however, is having a very sturdy stand, or something solid to sit the keyboard on. Even if you really dig in on the keys on a piano, it's not going to move the slightest bit. Or, unless the breaks aren't on...

gregaudio · Post by **gregaudio** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:36 pm

good call greg jazz

filkertom · Post by **filkertom** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:23 pm

Okay, so, is this the Modartt Pianoteq that was just announced, the one to be released tomorrow?

Watto · Post by **Watto** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:28 pm

Pretty sure not.

filkertom · Post by **filkertom** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:32 pm

Whups, you're right, Watto. Just had that confirmed in a thread about Pianoteq. Drat.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:33 pm

No - the one being discussed here, apparently by 4-Front, appears to be based on hybrid technology whearas the one you refer to is physically modelled.

I'm sure it's not vaporware btw - I suspect it's more a case of premature announcement by beta tester due the the excitement of playing with it

egarrard · Post by **egarrard** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:30 pm

Gregjazz wrote:From a Jazz pianist's perspective, the feel is especially important, because it directly affects your improvisation.

Of course, with any piano sample library you use, you are still limited to the feel of your keyboard itself. I use a Roland FP3, which has very good piano action, for a digital piano or synth, mind you. I have yet to play on a keyboard that feels like a real piano. They all have a plastic-y feeling, the keys snap up just a tiny bit too fast, and they aren't sensitive enough. For example, it's pretty easy to hit 127 on a keyboard, but on a piano you can't feel the boundary. Also, keyboards don't really have the amount of breakaway that pianos have. Also, try very lightly pressing down on a key. On a real piano, there's the area where it snaps down a tiny bit with a tiny bit of pressure. I haven't played a single keyboard that does this.

And I'm not taking a MIDI grand to my gigs, that would defeat the purpose. One thing that does make a bit difference, however, is having a very sturdy stand, or something solid to sit the keyboard on. Even if you really dig in on the keys on a piano, it's not going to move the slightest bit. Or, unless the breaks aren't on...

It sounds like you don't need a better sampled piano, but a better controller. This plug isn't going to fix what you just complained about. A plugin isn't about feel. It's about the sound it produces.

The expressiveness you are complaining about is a limitation of MIDI. 128 steps is probably too course. I'm not sure there's any way around it as it stands. I suppose with a keyboard/module combo, a manufacturer could have whatever resolution they wanted between the two. It couldn't interface with normal MIDI stuff without conversion. A new format, maybe over firewire, might be able to take off, but it would need to also transmit normal down-converted MIDI stream for older equipment and software. If they can send 48 or more tracks of 24-bit audio down firewire at the same time, surely they could run several 16-bit control streams along with it.

Have you thought about using an upward expander on the output? That will allow you to lower the velocity for the normal stuff , yet give you more headroom on the top. It will give the same amoount of steps, but they will be further apart. Depending on how it was adjusted, it might do the trick for you.

I agree with you though that controllers are a compromise at best. However, I don't need a truck to move mine and I can bang away all night without disturbibg someone sleeping in the room with me. Compared to what has gone before, I think controllers and piano modules are great! The benefits waaayy more than offset the negatives.

Again, waiting anxiously the try this new piano.

djdorian · Post by **djdorian** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:56 pm

james0tucson wrote:
benjamind wrote:Yeah. But I'm sure it WILL be placed on the market. Otherwise, why would they put up these tantalising demos? If they are indeed lying, they ought to be kicked out of KvR forever and I really mean that.
Um, the developer isn't doing anything deceitful. He *did* invite you to join the beta test. There was a barrier to entry for that -- you have to be a serious pianist, with a good controller and a monitoring environment good enough to evaluate something like this.

It's certainly unreasonable to be suggesting a "kickban".

I don't actually think we're supposed to be discussing it anyway, and I don't want to contribute to this, so I'm off the subject.

I can play Fur Elise on my Clavinova 230... Good enough to be a tester?

eduardo_b · Post by **eduardo_b** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:25 am

aMUSEd wrote:No - the one being discussed here, apparently by 4-Front, appears to be based on hybrid technology whearas the one you refer to is physically modelled.

I'm sure it's not vaporware btw - I suspect it's more a case of premature announcement by beta tester due the the excitement of playing with it

Yeah, I'd say (10 weeks down the road) that premature might sort of describe the initial post. It might be a great piano VSTi, although we don't know the price nor the actual drive space needed, but I don't think Synthogy need worry that Ivory will become the second best piano plug to a hybrid.

djdorian · Post by **djdorian** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:51 am

egarrard wrote: It sounds like you don't need a better sampled piano, but a better controller. This plug isn't going to fix what you just complained about. A plugin isn't about feel. It's about the sound it produces...

Exactly. Oh and I'd say IMHO that the Clavinova (CLP-230 and higher) have better keyboard action than the Roland, but the Roland has better sound. If you use a VSTi however, you remove the digital piano's samples from the equation...

Man I'm glad I bought that thing. Cuz if I'm ever on a blind date with an ugly girl, I can just say "Don't kiss me! I have the Clav!"

djdorian · Post by **djdorian** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:55 am

egarrard wrote: ...The expressiveness you are complaining about is a limitation of MIDI. 128 steps is probably too course. I'm not sure there's any way around it as it stands...

Would OSC or the next update to the MIDI standard be able to correct the inherent limitations of expressiveness that the current MIDI standard unfortunately imposes?

After all, the Kore controller uses fine parameter commands superior to the "course" 127 half-byte standard of MIDI CC.

djdorian · Post by **djdorian** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:58 am

living sounds wrote:I think it's crucial how an instrument responds, that's what makes it fun to play it after all. Even the highest end grand piano library I have tested couldn't remotely compete with a small but real (decently tuned) upright in my opinion. So a piano plugin that has the feel of a real one (or close) is very desireable IMHO. It may still not sound like one, but at least it's suited for composing and simply having fun, and that's where most vstis (not only pianos) lack if you ask me (but this has to do with the sound as well in most cases).

The best combination of "Feel/Action" and "Sound Quality" that I know of would be using a Clavinova CLP-280 to control either mmalmsjo.sf2 or Pianoteq VSTi via MIDI.

Would my setup be improved even more with this VSTi?

New Quality Piano VSTi