I found this, but that's not very conclusive.ttoz wrote:i just want a link to that thread about reaper vs samplitude audio performance.
An alternative to Logic
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- KVRAF
- 16890 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. 
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRian
- 903 posts since 14 May, 2003
Cubase
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- KVRian
- 831 posts since 7 Sep, 2004
Here's the thread: http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2337
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- KVRAF
- 3528 posts since 18 Apr, 2002 from British Columbia, Canada
buy Podium, and Shortcircuit, and Energy XT. There is no limit to what you can do with those three apps. NO LIMIT.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 46 posts since 23 Jun, 2006
well i'm currently going through the demo's, but i wont make a final decision until i get to use cubase in september (i'm guessing there isnt a demo) Thankyou so much everyone for all your input.
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- KVRist
- 204 posts since 7 Jun, 2001
from where i stand, ANYTHING is an alternative to logic, heh heh ;-) but thats not what i wanted to say - i wanted to comment on that old story about all the oh so great internal logic plugins and how thats the most complete package and whatnot.
it is true, logic comes with the biggest pile of soso plugins of all the hosts out there. but, we are at KVR here. we are discussing in a forum of the site that gives links to *hundreds* of freeware plugins, and the list of stuff that kills the stoneage algorithms in logics internal plugs (and most other hosts plugs as well, for that matter) is too long to even start. one evening of happy downloading and toying around and you have about 15 times as many plugins, with most of them way better than any of that old stuff that was programmed for 400 mhz CPUs many years ago. that turns the mighty "it comes with all these plugins!"(TM) argument into "its killer if free physical modelling is a daily essential to you and it even comes with the industrys most outdated sampling plugin for free". i mean sorry but comparing the stoneage EXS with modern feature monsters like kontakt and than adding kontakts price to other hosts prices is really pushing it. if you really want to count the EXS as a plus, take vsampler as replacement. it costs around 100 euros and can only do about 20 times as much as the EXS and not 25 times as much like the much more expensive kontakt. sounds like a more fair comparison to me (lacking alternatives that have an equally outdated featureset as the EXS).
btw there is a cubase demo. samplitude is also cool. i wouldnt recommend protools unless its a "real" TDM protools - the native versions are all seriously crippled on purpose to make the old DSP systems look better. last time i checked they still sold protools LE with a 32-track-limit and tried to make it look like that was because its a native system. thats pretty courageous these days, when even the cheapest supermarket pcs harddisk could easily play behoemian rhapsody in multitrack format (if such a thing existed ;-)
it is true, logic comes with the biggest pile of soso plugins of all the hosts out there. but, we are at KVR here. we are discussing in a forum of the site that gives links to *hundreds* of freeware plugins, and the list of stuff that kills the stoneage algorithms in logics internal plugs (and most other hosts plugs as well, for that matter) is too long to even start. one evening of happy downloading and toying around and you have about 15 times as many plugins, with most of them way better than any of that old stuff that was programmed for 400 mhz CPUs many years ago. that turns the mighty "it comes with all these plugins!"(TM) argument into "its killer if free physical modelling is a daily essential to you and it even comes with the industrys most outdated sampling plugin for free". i mean sorry but comparing the stoneage EXS with modern feature monsters like kontakt and than adding kontakts price to other hosts prices is really pushing it. if you really want to count the EXS as a plus, take vsampler as replacement. it costs around 100 euros and can only do about 20 times as much as the EXS and not 25 times as much like the much more expensive kontakt. sounds like a more fair comparison to me (lacking alternatives that have an equally outdated featureset as the EXS).
btw there is a cubase demo. samplitude is also cool. i wouldnt recommend protools unless its a "real" TDM protools - the native versions are all seriously crippled on purpose to make the old DSP systems look better. last time i checked they still sold protools LE with a 32-track-limit and tried to make it look like that was because its a native system. thats pretty courageous these days, when even the cheapest supermarket pcs harddisk could easily play behoemian rhapsody in multitrack format (if such a thing existed ;-)
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- KVRAF
- 13446 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
If you are really looking for some "industry standard", PT might indeed still be the most common thing to go for (and, as Brent said, probably Nuendo, for a lot of post/movie production tasks).
But, at least from what it seems to me (don't take my words for granted, I'm not that much of an expert), those PT based studios often seem to really pass along complete mixes, which means, that for "true" compatibility, you will as well have to have all the major TDM plugins - something the studios working on "industry standard level" can surely afford... but can you?
In case you need some compatibility without using PT, OMF support is your best friend (at least when dealing with audio a lot). Any "industry standard level" studio will be able to ex- and import OMF files.
Proper MIDI file support might be another issue, but it's less important because the actual sounds (unless you're working strictly along some GM/XG standard) will be lost.
So, the next thing on your "I want a compatible host" list to look for might be a nice way to "consolidate" all tracks in one go (so they all start at the same point).
In the end, for me, on audio intensive projects, OMF support has been quite a time saviour when exchanging songs between sequencers, and it's usually been working quite fine between Logic, Cubase and PT.
Regarding "standards" in general: I don't think there's all that much of it anymore, due to the fact that a lot of work for whatever productions is preproduced on laptops, in small home studios and whatever. And people are more and more using weird combinations of hosts, subhosts, rewired stuff and plugins - so in the end it's quite unlikely you'll ever find a machine that would run your preproduced songs 1:1 without any problems (fwiw, this is where working with Logic *could* make things easier, as it's quite possible to run a complete production without using and 3rd party stuff).
Finally, if you are planning to do, say, some freelancing work (as an engineer for example) in a larger variety of rather big-ish studios, you will most likely have to have a clue about PT, Cubase/Nuendo and Logic, because that's what you'll usually find there.
If you want to apply some things you learned in, say, some production classes or wherever to your own work (or do your homeworks), you may find it easier to do that with one of the "traditional" sequencers (again Logic, Cubase, PT, DP and nowadays probably Samplitude and Sonar as well).
If you only want to get your stuff done and probably take it to some other studio later on, get a sequencer (or a combination of them) that suits *your* style best - so, try their demos. Unfortunately there's no demo for Cubase/Nuendo anymore, which really sucks. For about anything else there's a demo (of course, you'd still need a Mac to run the Logic Express demo).
And, last but not least, a personal opinion on the Logic issue: To me, it still has something to its workflow which is quite amazing. Especially when it comes to composing with MIDI, it quite kicks all the other's butts (as said, IMO). That's why I'm still using it on my PC, rather than Cubase SX, which I also own. And I even prefer it for audio multitracking - but that might be a matter of being used to it, because Cubase surely has the more advanced options.
Regarding the issue of it being available for Macs only, it depends on a few things whether this might be getting in your way. In case you already have a kickass Windows machine, it might not be worth even thinking about getting a Mac. In case your current work is largely depending on Windows-only plugins and programs, dito.
But, in case you'd be planning on a new machine and a sequencer anyways, it could as well be quite a bargain. The latest Macs are performing outstandingly well (especially in combination with Logic, which is highly optimized for them), and meanwhile even Apple's pricings are somewhat reasonable. With LogicPro you'd get a kickass package of plugins in addition, so if you don't have a lot already, it's certainly worth it. Add to this that you may probably be able to get a students discount (which is like 50% off the full price).
Personally, I am now closer to getting a Mac and use my PC laptop to run certain Windows-only things in addition (probably even synced up, not sure about that). But then, that might only be me...
Oh, btw, derek, I don't think that Logic's internal plugins are average. Some are, but others are just unrivalled. And while I agree on the EXS being outdated, it's still got some nice features and it's also still the most efficient sampler there is (by a fair margin even). Now, you may say that it's aliasing as hell, but in case you've got proper multisamples, that's not an issue either. Fwiw, I also own Kontakt, but I'm still using the EXS a lot. And apart from it, please tell me where you find something like the EVD6, the EVB3, the EVOC, the ES2, Sculpture, Space Designer, TapeDelay, Ultrabeat etc. for free... these aren't "stoneage" at all and any possible replacement will cost you quite some money.
But, at least from what it seems to me (don't take my words for granted, I'm not that much of an expert), those PT based studios often seem to really pass along complete mixes, which means, that for "true" compatibility, you will as well have to have all the major TDM plugins - something the studios working on "industry standard level" can surely afford... but can you?
In case you need some compatibility without using PT, OMF support is your best friend (at least when dealing with audio a lot). Any "industry standard level" studio will be able to ex- and import OMF files.
Proper MIDI file support might be another issue, but it's less important because the actual sounds (unless you're working strictly along some GM/XG standard) will be lost.
So, the next thing on your "I want a compatible host" list to look for might be a nice way to "consolidate" all tracks in one go (so they all start at the same point).
In the end, for me, on audio intensive projects, OMF support has been quite a time saviour when exchanging songs between sequencers, and it's usually been working quite fine between Logic, Cubase and PT.
Regarding "standards" in general: I don't think there's all that much of it anymore, due to the fact that a lot of work for whatever productions is preproduced on laptops, in small home studios and whatever. And people are more and more using weird combinations of hosts, subhosts, rewired stuff and plugins - so in the end it's quite unlikely you'll ever find a machine that would run your preproduced songs 1:1 without any problems (fwiw, this is where working with Logic *could* make things easier, as it's quite possible to run a complete production without using and 3rd party stuff).
Finally, if you are planning to do, say, some freelancing work (as an engineer for example) in a larger variety of rather big-ish studios, you will most likely have to have a clue about PT, Cubase/Nuendo and Logic, because that's what you'll usually find there.
If you want to apply some things you learned in, say, some production classes or wherever to your own work (or do your homeworks), you may find it easier to do that with one of the "traditional" sequencers (again Logic, Cubase, PT, DP and nowadays probably Samplitude and Sonar as well).
If you only want to get your stuff done and probably take it to some other studio later on, get a sequencer (or a combination of them) that suits *your* style best - so, try their demos. Unfortunately there's no demo for Cubase/Nuendo anymore, which really sucks. For about anything else there's a demo (of course, you'd still need a Mac to run the Logic Express demo).
And, last but not least, a personal opinion on the Logic issue: To me, it still has something to its workflow which is quite amazing. Especially when it comes to composing with MIDI, it quite kicks all the other's butts (as said, IMO). That's why I'm still using it on my PC, rather than Cubase SX, which I also own. And I even prefer it for audio multitracking - but that might be a matter of being used to it, because Cubase surely has the more advanced options.
Regarding the issue of it being available for Macs only, it depends on a few things whether this might be getting in your way. In case you already have a kickass Windows machine, it might not be worth even thinking about getting a Mac. In case your current work is largely depending on Windows-only plugins and programs, dito.
But, in case you'd be planning on a new machine and a sequencer anyways, it could as well be quite a bargain. The latest Macs are performing outstandingly well (especially in combination with Logic, which is highly optimized for them), and meanwhile even Apple's pricings are somewhat reasonable. With LogicPro you'd get a kickass package of plugins in addition, so if you don't have a lot already, it's certainly worth it. Add to this that you may probably be able to get a students discount (which is like 50% off the full price).
Personally, I am now closer to getting a Mac and use my PC laptop to run certain Windows-only things in addition (probably even synced up, not sure about that). But then, that might only be me...
Oh, btw, derek, I don't think that Logic's internal plugins are average. Some are, but others are just unrivalled. And while I agree on the EXS being outdated, it's still got some nice features and it's also still the most efficient sampler there is (by a fair margin even). Now, you may say that it's aliasing as hell, but in case you've got proper multisamples, that's not an issue either. Fwiw, I also own Kontakt, but I'm still using the EXS a lot. And apart from it, please tell me where you find something like the EVD6, the EVB3, the EVOC, the ES2, Sculpture, Space Designer, TapeDelay, Ultrabeat etc. for free... these aren't "stoneage" at all and any possible replacement will cost you quite some money.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRist
- 61 posts since 12 Jan, 2004 from Portland, OR
I am an abandoned Logic user...left with 5.5.1 or whatever it is...and for the record I think the Logic plug-ins are excellent.
That being said, I've made the jump to Nuendo and I have to say I'm mighty impressed. It's very user-configurable; I basically have the same hotkeys I used with Logic...plus a few that Logic wouldn't let me have. And then there's all the modern conveniences: VSTi freezing and rendering, much-better-than-Logic audio editing, etc. I'm quite happy...and I don't have to buy a Mac from those smug Apple people who took Logic away from me.
That being said, I've made the jump to Nuendo and I have to say I'm mighty impressed. It's very user-configurable; I basically have the same hotkeys I used with Logic...plus a few that Logic wouldn't let me have. And then there's all the modern conveniences: VSTi freezing and rendering, much-better-than-Logic audio editing, etc. I'm quite happy...and I don't have to buy a Mac from those smug Apple people who took Logic away from me.
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- KVRAF
- 13446 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Is that a special kind of thong I don't know about?egbert wrote: What's a dipthong between friends?
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 4266 posts since 21 Oct, 2001 from my bolthole in the south pacific
What - you don't wear them at the swimming pool?Sascha Franck wrote:Is that a special kind of thong I don't know about?egbert wrote: What's a dipthong between friends?
I have one word for you: FUNGUS!
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- TopModernGeezer
- 2679 posts since 14 Mar, 2001 from Stuttgart, Germany
.. i for one second this, being a long time logic-user.derek wrote:it is true, logic comes with the biggest pile of soso plugins of all the hosts out there. but, we are at KVR here. we are discussing in a forum of the site that gives links to *hundreds* of freeware plugins, and the list of stuff that kills the stoneage algorithms in logics internal plugs
from all these on-board plugins logic comes with there's just one i really use: space designer.
for all the other ones i have WAY better substitutes ..
putte