An alternative to Logic

[bduffy]

Who knows, now with the Intel move, maybe they'll reconsider? I really have no idea what's on tap for Logic at this point... the audio needs to be revamped, or at least "option drag" a clip (to stretch it) would be nice! Come on Apple?? Really, that's one of things that irks me about them, they ignore such obvious stuff, and fix things no one cares about! Grrrr... I really had no problems with SX other than it just didn't work as well on the Mac (as the PC), and wasn't nearly as efficient as Logic. Other than those issues I could use it anytime... I'm hoping Apple listens to the "professional" users for a change, instead of those "marketiing" dicks!

Hey man, that goes for Steinberg, NI, you name it. We can only hope (that reminds me to write Steinberg).

[spaceman]

Who knows, now with the Intel move, maybe they'll reconsider? I really have no idea what's on tap for Logic at this point... the audio needs to be revamped, or at least "option drag" a clip (to stretch it) would be nice! Come on Apple?? Really, that's one of things that irks me about them, they ignore such obvious stuff, and fix things no one cares about! Grrrr... I really had no problems with SX other than it just didn't work as well on the Mac (as the PC), and wasn't nearly as efficient as Logic. Other than those issues I could use it anytime... I'm hoping Apple listens to the "professional" users for a change, instead of those "marketiing" dicks!

I sure could do with Cubase's audio tools in Logic
that's the only thing I'm not too impressed about in Logic

[DHR53]

Er, well Apple especially Now those are some BIG dicks...

[Sascha Franck]

That's actually something which has gotten worse with almost all sequencers. Features instead of stability and "improved functionality" (the latter, at least marketingwise, doesn't seem to count as a feature).
I mean, it certainly makes a greater impression in an ad to tell people something like "now with over 60 high quality plugins" instead of saying something such as "audio time stretching is now working".
Once they got their customers, a lot of companies don't seem to care about them too much anymore. Instead they're hunting for new users. Of course, they need to, but a bit of balance would sometimes be quite nice to see. I mean, the lack of certain audio related things in Logic is a legend already. The same goes for the bloated GUI stuff in Cubase - and almost certainly for a lot of other things in all sorts of sequencers. Once established, companies seem to get away with disfuntionalities, bugs, uncomfortable handling and what not.
Ah well, as long as there's still some fanboys...

[bduffy]

That's actually something which has gotten worse with almost all sequencers. Features instead of stability and "improved functionality" (the latter, at least marketingwise, doesn't seem to count as a feature).
I mean, it certainly makes a greater impression in an ad to tell people something like "now with over 60 high quality plugins" instead of saying something such as "audio time stretching is now working".
Once they got their customers, a lot of companies don't seem to care about them too much anymore. Instead they're hunting for new users. Of course, they need to, but a bit of balance would sometimes be quite nice to see. I mean, the lack of certain audio related things in Logic is a legend already. The same goes for the bloated GUI stuff in Cubase - and almost certainly for a lot of other things in all sorts of sequencers. Once established, companies seem to get away with disfuntionalities, bugs, uncomfortable handling and what not.
Ah well, as long as there's still some fanboys...

You know I totally agree with that. The one thing I wonder is: aren't these guys sometimes held back by the often ancient architecture of these hosts? Sonar is still built on top of the old CWPA engine, we all know how old Cubase and Logic are...is that a mitigating factor here?

[fgimian]

That's actually something which has gotten worse with almost all sequencers. Features instead of stability and "improved functionality" (the latter, at least marketingwise, doesn't seem to count as a feature).
I mean, it certainly makes a greater impression in an ad to tell people something like "now with over 60 high quality plugins" instead of saying something such as "audio time stretching is now working".
Once they got their customers, a lot of companies don't seem to care about them too much anymore. Instead they're hunting for new users. Of course, they need to, but a bit of balance would sometimes be quite nice to see. I mean, the lack of certain audio related things in Logic is a legend already. The same goes for the bloated GUI stuff in Cubase - and almost certainly for a lot of other things in all sorts of sequencers. Once established, companies seem to get away with disfuntionalities, bugs, uncomfortable handling and what not.
Ah well, as long as there's still some fanboys...

You know I totally agree with that. The one thing I wonder is: aren't these guys sometimes held back by the often ancient architecture of these hosts? Sonar is still built on top of the old CWPA engine, we all know how old Cubase and Logic are...is that a mitigating factor here?

Don't forget though that at SX, Cubase was essentially redesigned from the ground up which is why it's so much more useable than some of the other hosts which have constantly building on very early technology.

What I wonder is, why oh why, didn't they think to add reordable inserts and a more flexible audio routing scheme at SX ? Since they redesigned everything, you would have thought that this standard feature available in very cheap hosts would have made it in.

I agree in regards to stability VS features. I'm just a little unsure about the Cubase GUI bloat thing, I honestly have never found Cubase's GUI bloated in the slightest, can you elaborate on this please ?

Cheers
Fots

[Sascha Franck]

You know I totally agree with that. The one thing I wonder is: aren't these guys sometimes held back by the often ancient architecture of these hosts? Sonar is still built on top of the old CWPA engine, we all know how old Cubase and Logic are...is that a mitigating factor here?

Well, Cubase has apparently been rewritten from the ground. Similar things probably are true for Logic when it went to version 7.
Yet, some companies seem to just re-use older code for a lot of things. Lazyness maybe. "Look, we *do* have a sample editor already, now we need to get this out to the public asap, so let's just slap it in, our users are used to that piece of crap anyways".

Don't forget though that at SX, Cubase was essentially redesigned from the ground up which is why it's so much more useable than some of the other hosts which have constantly building on very early technology.

Yeah well - at the same time they left out some highly useful features of the older VST versions, such as the brilliant reclocking.
And in addition they went back to quickly implementing stuff only "sort of-ish". Example: Look at the "new" (coming with SX 3) "edit" button for VSTi tracks, bringing you straight to the audio channel popup window. When you select another VSTi track, it'll change back to the MIDI channel popup - just the very reason you used the "new" button in the first place... *sigh*. And that's just one very tiny example.

What I wonder is, why oh why, didn't they think to add reordable inserts and a more flexible audio routing scheme at SX ? Since they redesigned everything, you would have thought that this standard feature available in very cheap hosts would have made it in.

IMO there's one reason for this: They stick to their old hardware paradigms here. Of course, with hardware you *can* reorder insert effects easily, so that's not exactly a good explanation, but it's the general Steinberg view of things which is f**king this up. It's also got to do with the fact that they're still combining MIDI and audio channels in a rack-alike environment for virtual instruments - which doesn't make the slightest sense in our virtual instrument land.
In short, you have a fixed rack and send a signal to it (regardless whether it's MIDI or audio). Most other hosts are dealing with this in a more or less modular fashion (even a "standard" sequencer such as Logic does), which obviously is making perfect sense in a virtual studio.
Btw, one of the reasons Energy XT is a must for Cubase/PC users.
Oh, fwiw, this hardware-alike behaviour is also the reason for the "new" edit button not working properly. A VSTi track isn't something "directly" producing an audio signal (which it actually is...), it's still just a MIDI track, requiring some internal cabling.
And that's also the reason why you can't just replace the VSTi for a track while keeping the rest of your channel intact.
And it's also the reason why you can't duplicate an audio track in your project window without automatically creating a new one in your mixer as well (and believe me, there's quite some advances to that).

I agree in regards to stability VS features. I'm just a little unsure about the Cubase GUI bloat thing, I honestly have never found Cubase's GUI bloated in the slightest, can you elaborate on this please ?

Some of it might have been explained by the previous points in this post, but I'm afraid you'll have to do a forum search (on my name and Cubase or so) to find quite some things...
In short: I find it to have way too many buttons, icons and whatever. If I wanted that, I'd buy a pack of jelly beans. And I find the mixer to be the worst ever. No way to configure it properly (example: I don't need 8 inserts OR 8 sends to be shown, I'd rather need 4 inserts PLUS 4 sends being visible at once. I also don't need 32 channels to pop up automatically should I only need a monotimbral/mono-out instance of Kontakt or Battery). I hate the fact that I'm drowning in windows after working with it for only 2 minutes. In Logic, plugin windows can be "chained", so whenever I open a new plugin GUI, the old one is closed automatically.

But I won't go into that anymore right now - did it too often already

[spaceman]

ah go on Sascha, one more time

[stag]

That's a fact cubase will never be an option to replace logic on PC, Reapper and CMmuzys that's another story, a lot less convoluted, TBT not convoluted at all, very slick infact.

[fgimian]

Well I'm always keen on trying new things, I quite like ext and am very curious to see v2, also, I really dig Sequitur and Ableton. I don't get why everyone is in love with Reaper, not a fan, but it's awesome that people are loving it.

The issue is in regards to depth, Cubase, Logic and maybe even Sonar ... are very deep programs, you learn something new every day. Anything you wish to do today which you never used to do in the past can usually be accomplished with these hosts. For isntance, I only just got into the timewarp stuff in Cubase for fixing up timing on passages and it works very well. Now I use it all the time ! I also made use of the Play Order track recently which is very nifty indeed.

The thing that I love about the smaller hosts ist heir simplicity. Ableton's ReWire and VSTi implementation is so perfect. In fact, if Ableton had better audio features (proper fade in, fade out, crossfade), I'm pretty sure I would have switched to it regardless of all those tiny extras the big hosts have

Fots

[mrlargefoot]

So i'v tried a few demo's, yet to try cubase. And i'm really having trouble composing like i did in fls, is it just that thats not really what they are for, or am i missing the point entirely, i found it very easy to create the loops exactly as i wanted them, although i did find it a bit lacking in the arrangement.

[Sal Handsome]

from where i stand, ANYTHING is an alternative to logic, heh heh but thats not what i wanted to say - i wanted to comment on that old story about all the oh so great internal logic plugins and how thats the most complete package and whatnot.

it is true, logic comes with the biggest pile of soso plugins of all the hosts out there. but, we are at KVR here. we are discussing in a forum of the site that gives links to *hundreds* of freeware plugins, and the list of stuff that kills the stoneage algorithms in logics internal plugs (and most other hosts plugs as well, for that matter) is too long to even start. one evening of happy downloading and toying around and you have about 15 times as many plugins, with most of them way better than any of that old stuff that was programmed for 400 mhz CPUs many years ago.... Snipped

Wow, there's free stuff out there that kills the "stoneage algorithms in logics internal plugs"??
Free stuff that kills the following:
ES 2
ES 1
EVOC PS
Sculpture
EVP 88
EVB 3
Ultrabeat
EVD 6
EXS 24
Ringshifter
Space designer
Pitch correction
Vocal transformer
EVOC FB
Fuzz Wah
Ad limiter
Multipressor
Enveloper
Match EQ
Linear Phase EQ
Tape delay
Stereo delay
Bitcrusher
Clip distortion
Guitar Amp Pro and many more?
Free stuff that's well integrated in the program and easy on the CPU?
Free stuff that perhaps allows you to sidechain any way you want?
Please do tell, I am curious.
Sal

[Barbarossa]

Yes, that's correct Sal. There's no other sequencer with such a wide range of really good FX and VIs. The only program, that is in that direction with it'S internal FX quality wise but still miles behind will be Samplitude9Pro. IMO the internal plugs, are not an argument against, but even for Logic.

[derek]

Free stuff that's well integrated in the program and easy on the CPU?

to answer your question in a word, yes, there is. i know all the logic plugins very well - theres a reason why i mentioned physical modelling as the exception to the rule. but otherwise, on your list (that even listed legendary plugin revolutions such as the stereo delay to make it appear mighty and soooo big) i dont see anything breathtaking but exactly what i mentioned: mostly rather old soso-algorithms. yes, they are "easy on the cpu", like all old plugs are. yes, they are "well integrated". i would guess one could say that plugins in general are "well integrated" by definition, or what is that stupid marketing term supposed to mean? that they almost all look the same? wow, finally something positive i found to say about my old waves plugs! well integrated they are!

just have a nice evening at KVR - imo, if you dont find the alternatives, youre not really looking. i honestly dont feel like compiling a list for you right now, not with that "people that say that logic sucks suck" attitude anyway ;-) take the gplugs, the fish fillets and the kjaerhus classic stuff as a starting point, that should take care of 80% of your list within 5 minutes, should be an encouraging start for an evening of downloading fun (and yes, imo that stuff is a LOT better than the logic stuff, i.e. the fish fillets are really incredible and up there with the best commercial plugins - no wonder magix "bought" the developer ;-)


i will admit though that it will be hard to find plugins that do sidechaining for most of your listed cathegorys, so ill give you that: logic is probably the only program that features a pitchshifter with sidechaining. whatever thats good for ;-)

[Sal Handsome]

take the gplugs, the fish fillets and the kjaerhus classic stuff as a starting point, that should take care of 80% of your list within 5 minutes, should be an encouraging start for an evening of downloading fun (and yes, imo that stuff is a LOT better than the logic stuff, i.e. the fish fillets are really incredible and up there with the best commercial plugins - no wonder magix "bought" the developer


i will admit though that it will be hard to find plugins that do sidechaining for most of your listed cathegorys, so ill give you that: logic is probably the only program that features a pitchshifter with sidechaining. whatever thats good for

I have the Fishfillets plugs and while they are good I don't necessarily think they kill the Logic plugs.
FYI: The pitchshifter does not feature a sidechain!
That begs the question: Have you ever even tried Logic?
Maybe that's the reason you don't feel like compiling a list (mine is just a sampling of the plugs I like the most. There's way more included in Logic.)
Go ahead, I am still waiting.
Sal