Cubase What's the difference between FX and Group?

[bduffy]

Compyfox...urgh...you can't route "back" from Channels! Personally, I don't care much (although I would welcome the possibility), but the mixer is routed linearly; you cannot route a Group Channel's output to the Group before it, nor can you send backwards. That's what I mean. Look:

The Audio Channel's output can only go to the right.



The Group Channel's output can only go to the right, and cannot be output into the Send Channel.



The Send Channel's Output can go nowhere.



The same is true for the sends. Don't get me wrong, but that seems like limits on where routing can go; "wild" just isn't the right term. It's more than flexible enough for me, but why not be able to send the FX to a Group Channel? We're in a virtual environment, for chrissake! Am I missing something here?

Plus, a Group Channel and a Send Channel can be either mono or stereo...I don't see your point with all that. Simanalog won't work on a Group Channel or a Send Channel - it's an old plugin that needs to be updated to work with SX stereo channels. Big deal...

@Majken: understood about the Sends. God, I still have to try that x-fade thing...

[Compyfox]

Okay... first of all, why do you want to route from group to group, unless you have several string patches (each group with like 8-10 individual strings), then it's logical. Just to get more inserts? MAybe so, but don't you think you mix it to death?

Regarding the "order" and "forwarding". "Groups", can still be rearranged in order. I however didn't need to route over and over to have more inserts. I try to keep it clean right from the start. And if something can't be routed back... so what. I name my channelstrips and I still know what's going on.


That the FX can't be routed to another channel but the master bus is logical, isn't it? Tell me one example where you want to route it "back" or in this case "forward" it.

You can however use the Send ports, and mix it with 100% (or with 0dB which would be full bleed), which works the same. I don't see any quirks or limits behind that.


And regarding that Simanalog thing:
I know that sends can either be mono or stereo, but use stereo recorded guitar samples for example, and try to route it through the amp - BAM, doesn't work. Of course you can always use different amps, but this was just one example of using "true mono" plugins (that still exist) on stereo channels. And please don't tell me "they need to be updated", what if the firm discontinued their support and there's no better alternative?


Maybe I'm a narrow-minded engineer, but I just don't get what this fuzz is all about. Sorry...

[bduffy]

Okay... first of all, why do you want to route from group to group, unless you have several string patches (each group with like 8-10 individual strings), then it's logical. Just to get more inserts? MAybe so, but don't you think you mix it to death?

I route from Group to Group all the time. Example: Combine Top Snare and Bottom Snare Channel, bus them to a single, stereo Group Channel for compression/EQ, send that Group Channel to an "All Drums" Group Channel for global drum compression/EQ.

Regarding the "order" and "forwarding". "Groups", can still be rearranged in order. I however didn't need to route over and over to have more inserts. I try to keep it clean right from the start. And if something can't be routed back... so what. I name my channelstrips and I still know what's going on.

Not sure I follow this "inserts" thing. I didn't mean the routing as an example to get more inserts.

That the FX can't be routed to another channel but the master bus is logical, isn't it? Tell me one example where you want to route it "back" or in this case "forward" it.

You can however use the Send ports, and mix it with 100% (or with 0dB which would be full bleed), which works the same. I don't see any quirks or limits behind that.

Yeah, you see, I'm just saying that the routing has a limit, and this is something that users of EnergyXT and the newer hosts find lacking in Cubase, and might win some people over if they loosened that up. I totally agree with you; I find it hard to think of a situation where I would want to feed my sends into my synth track - but you can do it with other apps. Which just reminds me that Cubase has been designed with slightly more old-school mixing paths in mind. I have had situations where I do wish that re-ordering Groups would re-order the routing, or vice-versa. But generally, I'm just like you.

And regarding that Simanalog thing:
I know that sends can either be mono or stereo, but use stereo recorded guitar samples for example, and try to route it through the amp - BAM, doesn't work. Of course you can always use different amps, but this was just one example of using "true mono" plugins (that still exist) on stereo channels. And please don't tell me "they need to be updated", what if the firm discontinued their support and there's no better alternative?

My initial instinct here is, "why use stereo guitar samples"? But just like unlimited routing - why not? What can I say? Most other plugins work fine with stereo or mono material, and these do not, so I only use them on mono. And it doesn't look like they'll ever be updated; they're just incompatible.

Maybe I'm a narrow-minded engineer, but I just don't get what this fuzz is all about. Sorry...

Like I said, it's just something that others see as a limitation mostly, but I would like to have the option. But really, I'd rather have the program work flawlessy and be more optimized than worry about any of this shit. For me, the routing is great.

[Compyfox]

I route from Group to Group all the time. Example: Combine Top Snare and Bottom Snare Channel, bus them to a single, stereo Group Channel for compression/EQ, send that Group Channel to an "All Drums" Group Channel for global drum compression/EQ.

Okay, this is a good example. Then again that can be realised different, too - however then each channel uses inserts rather than the group. Whatever works best in this case. But it's indeed a good example of "routing from group to group".

Yeah, you see, I'm just saying that the routing has a limit, and this is something that users of EnergyXT and the newer hosts find lacking in Cubase, and might win some people over if they loosened that up.

eXT was first aimed at sounddesign. Wild routing, etc. Like Buzz, but as VST/VSTi. Cubase was never ment to be like that, but more like a software form of your old multitracking equipment.

Of course people would like to see this feature included, but then again, the whole FX engine would have to change. I find the eXT in Cubase solution fine as is.

My initial instinct here is, "why use stereo guitar samples"? But just like unlimited routing - why not? What can I say? Most other plugins work fine with stereo or mono material, and these do not, so I only use them on mono. And it doesn't look like they'll ever be updated; they're just incompatible.

Well, tell that samplepack providers who offer their stuff "stereo". Then again, we both know solutions around it, or just do it like usual: Route the stereo channel to a Mono Group (or just change it to mono - Cubase can do that, however a bit buggy) and the rest with insers and sends. We just have to be creative.

Like I said, it's just something that others see as a limitation mostly, but I would like to have the option. But really, I'd rather have the program work flawlessy and be more optimized than worry about any of this shit. For me, the routing is great.

Same here. I don't need massive routing. And if I want to create "crazy FX", I use something like eXT. Else Cubase is rock solid in terms of engineering - nothing that needs to be changed. Well except a native Sidechaining function finally *ack!*.

[Majken]

And regarding that Simanalog thing:
I know that sends can either be mono or stereo, but use stereo recorded guitar samples for example, and try to route it through the amp - BAM, doesn't work. Of course you can always use different amps, but this was just one example of using "true mono" plugins (that still exist) on stereo channels. And please don't tell me "they need to be updated", what if the firm discontinued their support and there's no better alternative?

Mono audio channels handle stereo audiofiles by mixing them together before they're sent into the plugin. Meaning you simply create a mono channel, import your stereo sample and place the simulanalog plugin on it.

/Majken

[bduffy]

There, I think we've worked that out to a more comfortable place: I agree with everything just said! Indeed, if you want wacky routing/sound designer-y solutions, eXT is available, right now, as a VST plugin. It is a great solution in Cubase, I plan to pick it up and use it much more.

I'm sure there's a workaround for the simuanalog stuff. Personally, I don't think they're the bee's knees anyway, but I've used Amplitube 2...

[sumpm]

That the FX can't be routed to another channel but the master bus is logical, isn't it? Tell me one example where you want to route it "back" or in this case "forward" it.

Example: Recording drums from a single mic. You want to create 3 tracks from the single recorded file, kick, snare, cymbals. You create 3 FX Channels. Send your track to all 3 FX Channels in the sends, and make the sends prefader, turn the volume of the original audio file track to zero; you now only hear your 3 seperate tracks, not the original. Kick gets a lowpass, snare gets a bandpass, cymbals get a highpass. Now you can treat each FX Channel like a seperate recorded track, add compression, change levels, eq....... Now you have 3 tracks that represent your drums, and you want to control their volume with one slider; so route their output to a group, like you would if you actually had 3 individual tracks....XXXXX YOU CAN'T.

THis may not be the most realistic example, but obviously, for someone at home, or with limited resources, realistic.

[bduffy]

You can do that via sending to Group Channels, pre-fader, no?

[Zero_G]

I always understood that not being able to route/send to 'earlier' groups/fx had to do with the plug-in delay compensation calculation.
I mean, suppose you route your audio to a group with an effect that causes 10ms delay, and then to another group that causes another 10 ms delay, and then you send it back to the first group: how are you ever going to calculate PDC?
It becomes an infinite loop, and therefore impossible.

That's how I understand, and can forgive, the routing restrictions in Cubase.

[bduffy]

Well, it that's true, then that sheds new light on it.

[Kingston]

Just to offer my view on the groups/sends issue,

1. sends are obsolete. groups can do everything they do and be re-routed. The only function that makes sends different from groups is that upon creating a new send, you can also select the plugin to load in it. Totally useless and hardly even a shortcut.

2. group re-routing limitation. It's not actually a problem of any kind, just a hindrance. If you find you are in the rare a situation of needing to route a group "backwards", it just takes a little time to get it going.

I say a rare situation, because having to do the backwards re-routing hassle a few times, you learn to take it into account in your song templates and don't really need to be bothered with it any more.

What helps is creating a few dummy groups (remembering quadro groups as well) on both ends of the group mixer, and hide them (set to can hide). when you find out you ran out of routing possibilities backwards, it's time to make a few of the dummies visible and use them instead. As you can have literally *hundreds* of groups, it's not a problem of any kind. Only takes a little learning.

[mike@manike]

I use the volume fader on sends because I use external effects.

I want send a hot signal to my reverb unit, so I send 100% of the signal and then use the volume fader to attenuate the Reverb amount.

I agree FX Channels are less flexible. But then I find them quicker to set up and I dont often want the option to route a send to another send.

Mike

[sumpm]

You can do that via sending to Group Channels, pre-fader, no?

If you are talking about sending from the FX track, FX Channels can neither be routed to, nor sent to Groups, or FX Channels; limited.

[bduffy]

You can do that via sending to Group Channels, pre-fader, no?

If you are talking about sending from the FX track, FX Channels can neither be routed to, nor sent to Groups, or FX Channels; limited.

No, I know; I'm saying if you wanted to route that drum trick you described, you could send to Groups instead of FX Channels. Or maybe I have no clue what you're trying to do.

[Foxglove]

I always understood that not being able to route/send to 'earlier' groups/fx had to do with the plug-in delay compensation calculation.
I mean, suppose you route your audio to a group with an effect that causes 10ms delay, and then to another group that causes another 10 ms delay, and then you send it back to the first group: how are you ever going to calculate PDC?
It becomes an infinite loop, and therefore impossible.

That's how I understand, and can forgive, the routing restrictions in Cubase.

Zero G hit the nail right here. This is the exact reason for not being able to route backwards and if you search the subject at Cubase.net, you'll find many posts about this, and Mods constantly explaining the nature of plugin delay compensation

The solution to this has been explained flawlessly by Kingston;

What helps is creating a few dummy groups (remembering quadro groups as well) on both ends of the group mixer, and hide them (set to can hide). when you find out you ran out of routing possibilities backwards, it's time to make a few of the dummies visible and use them instead. As you can have literally *hundreds* of groups, it's not a problem of any kind. Only takes a little learning.