Help me select a piano action keyboard midi controller

[AdmiralQuality]

I wish that the Clavinova had utilized a "true hammer action." Especially at the price that Yamaha charges for it, I figure that'd be better than the so-called "Graded Hammer Action," which is a misnomer at best and false advertising on the part of Yamaha at worst. That being said, their key-action is supposedly the best out of all weighted-action keyboards.

Yeah, I never figured out how something that does something a piano doesn't (have lighter keys towards the top) as well as entirely leaving out something that's vital to piano action (hammer action) gets such a good reputation. I guess some people like it, but I agree... it's marketing B.S. and substandard. Especially for their price point.

[djdorian]

Have you had better experience with "actual hammer" keyboards?

[AdmiralQuality]

Have you had better experience with "actual hammer" keyboards?

Well, that's all I'll use for piano. If I don't feel the hammer bouncing back against the key, it doesn't feel like piano to me.

That's why I got the SP-200, it was the cheapest piano controller I could find at the time that had a hammer action (and its a nice one! hard to believe they'd put such awful sound with such a nice keyboard!)

If that's what you mean by "actual hammer". I'd call it "hammer action". The only thing with ACTUAL hammers is an actual piano. And yes, I've had some good experiences with them. As long as they're in tune.

[djdorian]

Have you had better experience with "actual hammer" keyboards?

Well, that's all I'll use for piano. If I don't feel the hammer bouncing back against the key, it doesn't feel like piano to me.

That's why I got the SP-200, it was the cheapest piano controller I could find at the time that had a hammer action (and its a nice one! hard to believe they'd put such awful sound with such a nice keyboard!)

If that's what you mean by "actual hammer". I'd call it "hammer action". The only thing with ACTUAL hammers is an actual piano. And yes, I've had some good experiences with them. As long as they're in tune.

Yeah, exactly. I meant midi keyboards that used real hammers to simulate the physics of playing a grand, but signal the playback of digital recordings and/or send midi signals instead.

[Kalamata Kid]

Let me ask:
The velocity curves is electronic. It does not change the feel of the action, correct? What is very important is dynamic range for me from the softest to the loudest. Control is key here for me. Does "actual hammer help in this respect?

So To summarize.

on top of the list is the:

P70 Good sounds (good but not that important to me) Light, easy to move and most importantly weight and light action with great expression
Elka MK88
Casio http://www.casio.com/products/Musical_I ... al_Pianos/ Are all hammer action. I have tried a PX in the music store and was presently surprised. I need more opinions here if possible.

Still in consideration:

Kork SP-200 or Sp-250. The really bad sound though not that important to me is a turn of. I will try it at the music store if they have it.
StudioLogic VMK188 http://studiologic.net/vmk-188.html
UF Omnipotent Master Keyboard http://cme-pro.com/products-list/product-uf.html

near the bottom of the list:

M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 has all those knobs and sliders. Very nice. I personally did not like the action and XDVarenkor confirmed it. It was covered in a thread but could not locate it. http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/K ... -main.html

[djdorian]

Not sure how helpful this will be, but...

I've personally played the:

Roland Fantom
Roland 49 key "whatchamacallit"
Yamaha Clavinova 230-280
M-Audio Keystation 88
Casio Casiotone CT-310

...and I've played many other keyboards which I have NOT listed because I only played them once or twice...


I currently own:

Roland 49 key "whatchamacallit"
M-Audio Keystation 61es
Yamaha Clavinova 240
Casio Casiotone CT-310

I forgot the real name of the roland 49 key "whatchamacallit." I have a box around here somewhere with the name on it, but I dunno where, and the keyboard itself is under a huge stack of clothes that I dont want to move.

Based on experience I can say that M-Audio uses false advertisment in their claim that the Keystation 61es has "semi-weighted" keys. Also the Keystation 88 is mediocre in quality, IMHO.

The Clavinova line, for the most part is awesome but heavy, difficult to transport, and expen$ive.

Casiotone CT-310 is a great lil' f#cker when it comes to making nintendo-ish sounds. That's about all it can do though.

[AdmiralQuality]

Let me ask:
The velocity curves is electronic. It does not change the feel of the action, correct? What is very important is dynamic range for me from the softest to the loudest. Control is key here for me. Does "actual hammer help in this respect?

No, AFAIK there are no keyboards with adjustable actions, ONLY the velocity response is adjustable (but it's funny, you'd swear the keys are getting lighter or heaver as you adjust this.) And as far as getting a full velocity range, no, a hammer action won't help nor hurt there. But where it does help is rythmically, especially playing the same key in fast repetition. There's stuff you can do on a piano that non-hammer keyboards just make impossible. If you've played real piano, you'll know what I mean. If not, then a hammerless keyboard may be fine for you. One thing that's VITAL though to controlling velocity well is some weight to the keys... light plastic keyboards are REALLY hard to control velocity. You almost have to get your finger moving the right speed before it hits the key... where if you're accelerating a mass, instead of working against a spring (which delivers a constant resistance), the mass gets harder to move the faster you want to move it, due to the acceleration. So the less WEIGHT, the more trouble you will have controlling velocities.

So To summarize.

on top of the list is the:

P70 Good sounds (good but not that important to me) Light, easy to move and most importantly weight and light action with great expression
Elka MK88
Casio http://www.casio.com/products/Musical_I ... al_Pianos/ Are all hammer action. I have tried a PX in the music store and was presently surprised. I need more opinions here if possible.

Still in consideration:

Kork SP-200 or Sp-250. The really bad sound though not that important to me is a turn of. I will try it at the music store if they have it.
StudioLogic VMK188 http://studiologic.net/vmk-188.html
UF Omnipotent Master Keyboard http://cme-pro.com/products-list/product-uf.html

near the bottom of the list:

M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 has all those knobs and sliders. Very nice. I personally did not like the action and XDVarenkor confirmed it. It was covered in a thread but could not locate it. http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/K ... -main.html

I'm very curious to try the M-Audio Keystation as well as their new piano http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/P ... -main.html - which sounds great in the MP3 demos, IMHO, and the specs look good "88 hammer-action keys" I do sometimes miss having pitch and mod wheels on my Korg. I might upgrade to one of these someday, if they feel and sound as good as the demos sound.

[Kalamata Kid]

So piano action is not always hammer action? Weighted keys is not hammer action Correct? No, I do not want semi-weigh action which is using springs.

I believe I want real hammer action but light rather than heavy action. Now Admiral Quality recommends heavy to get better control on velocity. If I recall the Elka MK88 was light or medium action and I loved it so perhaps this suited my needs. My fingers are not too strong so maybe I should stay away from heavy action keyboard.

[AdmiralQuality]

Weighted just means there's weight in the key action, somewhere.

True weighted would have no springs. (So it wouldn't work if you tried to play upside down.) Semi-weighted is a combination of springs and mass -- which you actually might like, but there are very FEW actual semi-weighted keyboards these days! I see a lot of totally weightLESS spring only actions mistakenly called semi-weighted! I'll never forgive Roland for the weightless action on my XP-80 (since SOLD!) that they advertised as semi-weighted. I guess it was, if hollow plastic keys can be said to have weight!

Now hammer action, that's different again... (and you wont find an unweighted hammer action). To test if it's hammer... (if you can't just tell)... grab a key between your thumb and forefinger on the little ledge on the front and wiggle it up and down quickly, but not all the way up or all the way down... you should feel something ELSE in there, bumping around, getting pushed off by your key motion, and bouncing back an instant later.

Again, if you don't already care about this, then maybe you don't need it (it can actually inhibit some kinds of playing! Hard to play organ on a piano keyboard, for example.) As long as there is some substantial MASS, it's a weighted action and will be easy to get good velocity response on (and the main thing this means is that the keyboard will be HEAVY because there's as yet no way to fake mass without actual MASS. Maybe someday they'll have physics simulating servo motors???? THEN you could have an action adjust feature too!!!!) So you can get good velocity control without hammer action, but you can't use your piano technique, exactly, without hammer action (or you'll have to adapt it somewhat.)

But depends how good a piano player you are. I'm a crappy piano player (close enough for rock'n'roll!) but I still miss the hammer action when I play a Yamaha. Probably because I grew up with a real piano in the house. Just feels wrong if I don't feel the hammers bouncing back, and the reactive force of accelerating them.

Cheers!

[djdorian]

Weighted just means there's weight in the key action, somewhere.

True weighted would have no springs. (So it wouldn't work if you tried to play upside down.) Semi-weighted is a combination of springs and mass -- which you actually might like, but there are very FEW actual semi-weighted keyboards these days! I see a lot of totally weightLESS spring only actions mistakenly called semi-weighted! I'll never forgive Roland for the weightless action on my XP-80 (since SOLD!) that they advertised as semi-weighted. I guess it was, if hollow plastic keys can be said to have weight!

Now hammer action, that's different again... (and you wont find an unweighted hammer action). To test if it's hammer... (if you can't just tell)... grab a key between your thumb and forefinger on the little ledge on the front and wiggle it up and down quickly, but not all the way up or all the way down... you should feel something ELSE in there, bumping around, getting pushed off by your key motion, and bouncing back an instant later.

Again, if you don't already care about this, then maybe you don't need it (it can actually inhibit some kinds of playing! Hard to play organ on a piano keyboard, for example.) As long as there is some substantial MASS, it's a weighted action and will be easy to get good velocity response on (and the main thing this means is that the keyboard will be HEAVY because there's as yet no way to fake mass without actual MASS. Maybe someday they'll have physics simulating servo motors???? THEN you could have an action adjust feature too!!!!) So you can get good velocity control without hammer action, but you can't use your piano technique, exactly, without hammer action (or you'll have to adapt it somewhat.)

But depends how good a piano player you are. I'm a crappy piano player (close enough for rock'n'roll!) but I still miss the hammer action when I play a Yamaha. Probably because I grew up with a real piano in the house. Just feels wrong if I don't feel the hammers bouncing back, and the reactive force of accelerating them.

Cheers!

Not sure, but I think the reason why Roland and M-Audio are able to get away with this is becasue legally the word "semi-weighted" does not have to be proven.

Just like how in the health food industry lables with terms like "burns away fat" or "reverses cancer" can be slapped on a product without legally requiring proof of their ability to do those things. (Words like "treats," "reverses," "melts away," or "burns away" are so vague as to be meaningless in a medical context, so the FDA let's that sh*t slide.)

Caveat Emptor!

[Kalamata Kid]

I have been doing some more research. It seems that I cant keep my eyes away from knobs! and sliders and pitchbend and modulation wheel. So I am revising my top list. These all have hammer action which with your help seems is what I need. I should test them for feel and if light or heavy.

UF Omnipotent Master Keyboard
http://cme-pro.com/products-list/product-uf.html

StudioLogic VMK188
http://studiologic.net/vmk-188.html

ProKeys 88
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/P ... -main.html

My concern is that the UF Omnipotent Master Keyboard and StudioLogic VMK188 do not have velocity scaling. Can anyone confirm this?

Any advice on these three? What else is in this category?

[XDVarenkor]

The UF8 does not have scaling, no. It has a selection of very nice response curves, a great action (once you've played it in - I'll explain in a moment), and lots of control options including breath control input. It's huge though, and monsterously heavy since most of the case is metal and it's a true hammer action.

Check the CME forums and you'll read about all sorts of teething problems with these things. That's all they are - teething problems - I've never seen one work first time out of the box, but then never seen one that didn't work just fine with a little attention. I've had driver issues with mine, but they're updated regularly - and the hammers were sticky when I got it (grease settling in shipping, apparently) so it wasn't sending note-off messages all the time. A few weeks of pounding the keys sorted that out, but nearly killed my arms since the keys are really very heavy (as a piano should be, but still...)

I'd still recommend it for sheer value though. And trust me, cross M-Audio off your list.

[AdmiralQuality]

Response curves ARE scaling! If you just wanna chop off the ends... you could always do that in your host. And you can apply curves in your host too, but yes, then you lose some of the gamut of possible values... still, 127 is a LOT of velocities... especially if you're playing a piano sound and not some far out synth sound, you'll NEVER be able to tell if there are 127 discreet velocities or only 64... or however many. Hell, I play my DX-7 (which incedentally has a semi-weighted keyboard! ) and I don't notice that the velocity output actually has big empty regions in it. It still just feels right.

[Firebird]

The UF8 does not have scaling, no. It has a selection of very nice response curves, a great action (once you've played it in - I'll explain in a moment), and lots of control options including breath control input. It's huge though, and monsterously heavy since most of the case is metal and it's a true hammer action.

Check the CME forums and you'll read about all sorts of teething problems with these things. That's all they are - teething problems - I've never seen one work first time out of the box, but then never seen one that didn't work just fine with a little attention. I've had driver issues with mine, but they're updated regularly - and the hammers were sticky when I got it (grease settling in shipping, apparently) so it wasn't sending note-off messages all the time. A few weeks of pounding the keys sorted that out, but nearly killed my arms since the keys are really very heavy (as a piano should be, but still...)

I'd still recommend it for sheer value though. And trust me, cross M-Audio off your list.

How is this with samples that don't have much dynamics?

[AdmiralQuality]

How is this with samples that don't have much dynamics?

If your sound generation has poor dynamics, then all the controllers in the world won't help you. Its a problem that can be caused at both ends. But, most everything these days, particularly software, WILL let you apply a LOT of dynamic response. If not, you just need to tweak your patch.

But flip-side, if I was making a realistic Minimoog or other classic synths patch, I'd probably not put ANY dynamics on it at all! As those synths weren't velocity sensitive! Still, it's usually a small matter to add it.