An alternative to Logic

[jens]

but for the person who just wants to crank out some tunes quickly, you have to have some kind of template ready to go with mixers, and instrument channels etc. MHO of course...

sure - I totally agree - but no-one stops you from making such a template (similar to Logic's 'autoload'-song)

[spaceman]

Well, if we're trying to replace the current Logic Mac with freebies, then presumably your plugins would have to be Mac ones, in which case, there's even less freebie choices than the PC side, so I imagine it would be harder to achieve.

i know theres a lot less freeware out there for mac. yet, the opposite is the case - the thread starter explicitly asked for a pc alternative, with the goal to avoid buying a mac. so i guess pc plugins should do just fine.

Plus there's all the weirder Logic stuff like Enhance Timing, Vocal Transform, Spectral Gate and many others that's also harder to find something that does the same.

oh yes, thats all absolutely essential stuff there. cant live without it. about as essential as synth edit plugins (nothing against a good synth edit plugin every now and then)

In any case, you've made you point, and agreed that your initial words were over exxagerated and not completely correct

whatever

wow, some serious spin there. nice try, but no, thats not what i sad. my opinion remains unchanged, and the fact that im too lazy and not nice and masochistic enough to compile lists in response to some hate posts doesnt change that in any way either. all i have acknowledged is that logic fans will strongly disagree with my opinion, but then, that one was clear before i even started posting. that i tried to write a version even the fanboy club would be able to agree on seems to have been a mistake in retrospect, considering the way you try to misinterpret it here.

yes, whatever derek.. so where's the list of logic plugin killers? We're all still dying for you to 'do extensive testing of free plugins, installing uninstalling, blahblah f**king load of wank'

we've seen you move in all wind directions already in an attempt to come out on top but we're still at the beginning.. according to you it was easy to compile a list of free logic plugins killers.. so where the f**k are they?

and don't try to change the subject once again.. why don't you just admit that your statement was wrong? All the rest of the arguments are open for discussion but they were not what the discussion was about.

[Arksun]

ok kiddies, time for your milk and biscuits now, you can argue about who's action figure is the best after I've read everyone a story about spot the dog

[brok landers]

sure - I totally agree - but no-one stops you from making such a template (similar to Logic's 'autoload'-song)

yes, there is something that stops one, jens:
xt itself.
it lacks of too many features to really set up an initial workspace/autoload.
1. the editor windows cannot be left open at the place where it was before closing the song.
2. i'm repeating myself, but no storable screensets (docking is no option).
3. no linked/contentlinked windows
4. no dedicated fully configurable trackmixer
5. ... etc, etc (the list would get much longer but i don't wanna bore you all, as i wrote it a thousand times allready )

this is the basic/traditional stuff i am talking about, along with other very basic features i miss ...
so, of course you are able to build an autoload, but it will not be too much of use, so there's no need for it ...

[brok landers]

yes, whatever derek.. so where's the list of logic plugin killers? We're all still dying for you to 'do extensive testing of free plugins, installing uninstalling, blahblah f**king load of wank'

we've seen you move in all wind directions already in an attempt to come out on top but we're still at the beginning.. according to you it was easy to compile a list of free logic plugins killers.. so where the f**k are they?

and don't try to change the subject once again.. why don't you just admit that your statement was wrong? All the rest of the arguments are open for discussion but they were not what the discussion was about.

yes, one has to say that the plugins that come with logic are really great workhorses which sound good (exept the eq) and don't blow up you cpu.
the point is, you could mostly replace these with even good sounding freeware (more or less), unless you don't want that _exact_ sound. the logic synths, however, do sound very good, but those are repaceable, too, the downside is, that ths will not be with freeware, so the additional cost would be there ...
i also would deeply miss some logic plugins, simply because of the fact that i got used to them and i know what i'm dealing with in depth.
then again, if i'd have to buy all plugins to replace the logic ones, ext is about 39 € or so?
that ontop would still lead to the fact that ext+all the plugs is much cheaper than logic pro.
plus, i'd have again to go and buy a mac ...

[derek]

*sigh* one last round...

beej wrote:

"Ok, well you're just trying to take the opposing arguments just for the sake of it now."

nah wait a sec here. youre putting words in my mouth and now youre pissed that i dont simply nod my head and play nice in response to that? well...sorry? :-)

what i wrote about how people have overblown my statement into absolute terms was in response to sascha "challenging me" to find a freeware alternative to the EXS, which is saying a lot about the mindset here, considering that i talked about that as much as one thread page earlier, stating that the EXS can indeed not be replaced by freeware, but that it doesnt take 500€ kontakt (that can do 25 times more than the EXS) to replace it like everyone likes to pretend, but 100€ vsampler, which can only do 20 times more should do just nicely. am i "taking my statements back" by pointing this out again to people who ignore shades of grey cause they prefer arguing in black and white? you tell me.

but yeah, (this isnt directed towards you) quoting out of context can bring you a long way. so can namecalling, questioning someones experience (you probably havent ever used logic! do you EVEN OWN the UAD? read: are you even worthy talking about this stuff etc bla bla bla), willingly misinterpreting stuff or coming up with the cool idea to pretend that i at some point promised a list. no spaceman, i didnt promise a list. go find the stuff yourself. its there, right in front of you, upper right of the page, says "quicklinks". yes, an awful lot of it is pc only, but then, the guy who asked for it explicitly asked for pc stuff to avoid buying a mac in the first place (that got turned around to "its gotta be mac freeware" at some point too, really amazing). and with the big tour you made, from bare namecalling to questioning my experience to quickly retreading from that cause it led nowhere, followed by a short "ooooh he did major productions" antisnob argumentation to finally arrive at your "i will pretend now that you promised a list, so post the list or die" attitude - id say that qualifies as "moving to all wind directions" just fine.

As ive said many times before (thats my one "wind direction" for you right there): no list, sorry. i reserve the right to have an opinion in this regard without "proving it to you". cause, you know, i have this feeling that this would lead nowhere...no idea where i got that from, so sue me :-)

[jens]

sure - I totally agree - but no-one stops you from making such a template (similar to Logic's 'autoload'-song)

yes, there is something that stops one, jens:
xt itself.

works almost perfectly for me in most regards...

[Sal Handsome]

So i have come to understand that logic 7 is the industry standard, also that it is only now available on Mac. Not willing to shell out for a machine that will be mostly useless to me i am looking for an alternative to Logic, or what i would lose by getting an older version that is PC friendly (if possable at all).

industry standard for which industry? did you consult 'the board of industry standards' or something to draw this conclusion?

Yup, they meet the first Monday of every month and decide stuff like that..
You didn't get the memo? : )

Sal

[Sal Handsome]

I am back!! : )
Derek,
before I reply to you, please understand:
A) I don't participate in platform wars, DAW wars and synth wars.
B) I don't work for Apple nor do I own any of their shares. I don't gain anything if they sell more Macs or Logics (actually my sound becomes less unique.. : ) )
C) I was genuinely intrigued by your statement that freeware could not only replace but actually kill the Logic's plugs. Hence my asking you to list a suggestion of proposed killers.
I believed your statement was factually incorrect, or as much incorrect as something that's based on opinion and preferences can possibly be.
And if this thread shows anything, is that you are in the minority. I believe that would be the case in any audio related forum such statement is made.
Yes, you can be happy with freeware, even create killer stuff with it as you seem to be doing (and I wish you lots more of it), but I read your statement to mean that it is an accepted notion that the Logic plugs are easily killed by replacement freeware (your words).
I disagree with that statement and offer the following:
1) Logic is an amazing package that should not be overlooked by anybody who's entering this wonderful hobby or profession of music creation.
2) I would even suggest that a package like Logic might be a strong reason to buy a Mac. When you see the app fly on a Power Mac while you pile on plug after plug, it puts a huge grin on your face as you realize the CPU meter is barely moving.
3) This is a big one: The plugs are a big seller of the package. You would be foolish to ignore them while considering apps. The very fact that you can start producing from the get go with great sounding (dare I say pro) FXs and synths has to be listed as a major plus.
Now let's get more specific.

@sal:

you dont think the fishfillets are better than logics dynamics? we will have to agree to disagree then - something i dont have a problem with, you know...

They might be better in some situations, but not necessarily kill them.

yes, the listed bundles cover a good 80% imo - its all the basic processing, filtering, dynamics & transient shaping, modulation and delay effects plus a good bundle of speci a lists already a la autotune etc. since you left out space designer (the only other plug worth mentioning *in my opinion*, guess you simply forgot about it since you otherwise were so much into it to even list such highlights as the pitchshifter or the stereo and tape delay) and since high numbers seem to impress here to a certain degree, ill throw in sir, the mda plugs, say 1/10th of the 8358938 delay spec i alist plugins out there and that guitar suite bundle of which i always forget the name off, yet still think the sound is much much better than the amp simulator in logic, which looks very nice but sounds very bad - to my ears, that is.

Check my list, Space designer is on it. The list was compiled of plugs I am most familiar with and that I think are fairly unique to Logic (sound, features....)
Of course I was not going to list the 80+ plugs even though they are all very useful (Sascha, the Exciter is a little gem in the right context)

still dont get my point? you know what, ill give you this, since judging a plugins sound is obviously so highly subjective that you prefer logics dynamics over the fish fillets - lets just say that the list is easily replacable, and me liking many of the free plugs better than logics plugs (or many commercial plugs that i bought, for that matter), thats just me. ok? and this btw is all pretending that other hosts have NO plugins at all, which of course isnt true. does logic have the walddorf a1, the monologue synth and that pad thingy, does it come with the funky thereminish multifx unit, all the funky timesynced sfx, does it have magneto, spl, the much better steinberg leslie simulator etc? or does it have the fine dynamics of samplitude that imo are up there with universal audios DSP stuff? no it doesnt. but plugins are just not a big deal anymore, and steinbergs cool leslie btw is from mda if i remember correctly and can be had with everything minus the fancy interface (one could say its better integrated for free.

You are once again diverting the argument. The criteria are very simple:
1) It has to be free.
2) It has to kill the Logic plugs.
I don't even care if it's PC only.

plugin lists - as i said, if you dont get my point by now, you probably dont want to (wouldnt come as a surprise and thats fine with me then. i talked about the exs, which indeed cannot be replaced by freeware 2 pages ago or so (my supposed statement that absolutely everything can be killed without any exception is of course just an overblown extreme interpretation of what i initially said, (c) by some who need that so they can argue against it more easily...dont feel like reacting to schopenhauer rhetorics right now

Your words actually. My interpretation of your statement was shared by many on this thread.

anyway, cant write in this thread all day - my point stands, the plugin argument isnt what it used to be, that should be obvious to anyone who has clicked on the quicklink section only to find hundreds and thousands of plugins, many of them being incredibly good and often better than many commercial alternatives.

You don't have time to list alternatives to the plugs both I and Sascha have listed yet you have time to reply so far?
One simple list would go a long way to support your statement.
Please remember the criteria:
1) It has to be free.
2) It has to kill the Logic plugs.
I don't even care if it's PC only.

wow, some serious spin there. nice try, but no, thats not what i sad. my opinion remains unchanged, and the fact that im too lazy and not nice and masochistic enough to compile lists in response to some hate posts doesnt change that in any way either. all i have acknowledged is that logic fans will strongly disagree with my opinion, but then, that one was clear before i even started posting. that i tried to write a version even the fanboy club would be able to agree on seems to have been a mistake in retrospect, considering the way you try to misinterpret it here.

Wow, I hope that was not directed at me as I don't feel I have used any hate in my posts nor have I behaved as a fan boy.
You were challenged to provide support for your argument and so far you have failed to list anything that would give the slightest shred of evidence that there might be some truth or perhaps reasoning as to how you came to your conclusion. You owe it to the people who have requested it on this thread and the future reader of the thread who's trying to gather information as to whether Logic is the right program for him/her.
It's very simple. Provide the list. I'll check the sites for samples or perhaps Sascha can check them out on his PC and if the stuff is really good we can all learn something new.
Remember:
1) It has to be free.
2) It has to kill the Logic plugs.
I don't even care if it's PC only.

what i wrote about how people have overblown my statement into absolute terms was in response to sascha "challenging me" to find a freeware alternative to the EXS, which is saying a lot about the mindset here, considering that i talked about that as much as one thread page earlier, stating that the EXS can indeed not be replaced by freeware, but that it doesnt take 500€ kontakt (that can do 25 times more than the EXS) to replace it like everyone likes to pretend, but 100€ vsampler, which can only do 20 times more should do just nicely. am i "taking my statements back" by pointing this out again to people who ignore shades of grey cause they prefer arguing in black and white? you tell me.

I am the original bad guy here. I called you out on your statement.
Ok, you concede that no freeware can replace the EXS 24, let's move on to the other plugs, shall we?
You made a bold statement and I challenged it. So did some other people including Sascha, whom I believe is well respected on this forum and has experience not only with the PC/Mac platforms but also the myriad of software available on either.
Once again the challenge still stands: Provide a list of the plugs you believe can kill the Logic ones.
But remember:
1) It has to be free.
2) It has to kill the Logic plugs.
I don't even care if it's PC only.

As a matter of fact this challenge is to open to anyone who believes he/she can help Derek in compiling this list.

Sal

PS: Ain't being called out on an internet forum a bitch? : )

[Sal Handsome]

geez besides crapitum verb, and crapilver verb, i don't think there IS a bad plugn in Logic. in fact, one can compose and produce entire projects with it from start to finish without using anything else!

The filter STILL sounds fantastic, the space designer rocks, all the distortiosn are superb, ring mod is one of the best...etc ect...

f i were to change anything, i'd add tempo sync to the flanger and a multiband distortion, that's about it. oh and band solo buttons for the multipressor.

Hi ttoz,
I agree on the tempo sync as well as more modulation options added to the plugs.
FYI, you can already solo bands in the multipressor by clicking on the greenish square boxes below the level meters.
Sal

[Sascha Franck]

Derek,

Sal has already said about everything. Just so much: As I am pretty much regularly visiting KVR, would you really think I'd miss the tons of kickass freeware that can be found in the database? That'd be rather stupid, wouldn't it?
Heck, apart from the prices of properly powered Macs (which now have changed quite a bit), this has been one of the main reasons why I (as one of the biggest Logic afficionados on earth) am still using a PC.
In addition to having tried out almost each and every freeware plugin and a lot of the available demos, I own a pretty good assortment of commercial plugins as well (such as NIs Komplete, the FXpansion package, the U-He stuff, etc.).
Further, I even got myself Energy XT, mainly for better Logic compatibility of all the fine freeware plugins (many of them simply won't run well "natively", quite some of them even crash Logic).
In the end, I'd say I'm pretty much familiar with most of the plugin alternatives available.
And that's why I was wondering a lot about your statement. And that was also why I've been - yes - challenging you to come up with your alternatives.
It's not even that I wouldn't agree with some of your statements - I do! I am using a lot of alternatives instead of the Logic plugins, especially in the EQ, compression and reverb department (the latter will most likely change once I got my Mac because there's Space Designer, which I like a lot). So, I defenitely had my "evenings of downloading fun".
But, still, I'm using quite some of the internal plugins a lot - even if there are "better" (and possibly even free) alternatives. Just to give you a few examples:

As mentioned, I do have Kontakt as well. And while I love it a whole lot, especially for being a true modulation monster, I often prefer the EXS for a lot of bread 'n' butter tasks. Its efficiency is unrivalled, patch loading time is better than with any of the others I tried as well and the filters are still among the best you can find - the latter being something where Kontakt and VSampler (the ones you mentioned) fall quite short (edit: pressed the wrong buttons while still writing, so some of you may see a shorter post...).

I'm even using the EVP a lot. Yes, there's MrRay and MrTramp, but they're quite some CPU hogs, and for the occasional background e-piano I don't need things to be as detailed as possible. In addition, the EVP is more flexible.

Then, what about the EVD6? There's no replacement for it, even if you're willing to spend some money for a commercial alternative. If you are into funky stuff (and I certainly am), you want a proper clavinet, don't you? Sure, there's brilliant sample sets, but most of them aren't for free either, plus I just love the added flexibility of the EVD6. Heck, I sometimes even use it to double guitar riffs (take that as some of my secret tips - it's marvelleous how you can add a bit of attack to some more or less washed distorted riffs by doubling things with some modified EVD6 setting!).

I could go on with describing how the ES2 is still an absolutely marvelleous (and possibly vastly underrated) synth, how the EVOC, especially along with the Filterbank, is just nice, etc etc.

Further, if you look around, you won't even find a free replacement for a plugin as simple as Logics StereoDelay - you'd need a combination of two delays to get close. The same goes for the Phaser (there's great free options, but they won't sound like it), the SpectralFilter and probably a bunch of others (the list obviously getting bigger with the recent Logic versions).

Oh, and: I am aware of the great quality of the Fish Fillets, the TBT stuff (which is truly marvelleous, if you ask me) and some others. Yet, I am often using Logics internal compressor. It's minimal on the CPU, so, even on my aging 1.86GHz Pentium M I can run an instance on each track, should I need to. In addition, it's side-chainable easily.
And, which leads to my last point: Dealing with it is quite easy.
You know, to me this has always been one of *the* key points when using Logics internal plugins in favour of others. They all feature more or less "consistent" GUIs. Touch and move a knob or fader once and you'll know how all of them feel! Things such as this make the whole package feel very well, let you work quickly, etc.
For instance, when switching from a Logic compressor to, say, Blockfish, I'm pissed instantly - because the damn thing requires circular mousemovements to be adjusted, which is as unpleasant as it could get. Similar things go for, say, adjusting filter settings of the Pro53 (which isn't even that bad). It feels a lot better doing this on the ES2.
Seriously, to me that's one thing Emapple has nailed spot on: Ergonomics (for me this is true for quite some other parts of the program as well, namely the arrange, mixer and matrx editor windows). You often don't find proper ergonomical solutions in freeware synths. Hell, even some commercial products lack of them seriously.

Ah well, enough of that already...

[Sascha Franck]

Oh, I need to post an addon:
As I am onboard of the Logic ship for a long time (even being a former betatester), I am very well aware of the shortcomings too.
When it comes to plugins, the complete lack of any MIDI learn/assign modes is driving me nuts constantly (yes, now you have that global song controller setup, but it's defenitely not the same). Also, the internal plugins don't even support something as old as program changes (there'd be MYRIADS of possible options to implement them in addition to the current preset selection scheme) - I mean, what the hell, when you load a preset bank into a 3rd party plugin, program changes DO work fine, just that there's nothing like preset banks for the internal plugins. Let alone that you still can't export preset banks for 3rd party stuff. Oh yeah, all that because it's been invented by the oh-so-evil main competitor. FFS, this being the reason for a lot of almost halted development in the past.
"ASIO? Heck, no, we need to re-invent the wheel and develop our own standard (EASI)." EASI never ever worked properly, not even for Creamware and M-Audio cards (the only companies actually developing some beta EASI driver versions).
"VST support? Evil b0rg stuff, we rather do our own format!" Took them at least 1-2 years to get VST support done, back in the days of the switch from V3 to V4 and V4.5, mainly because they didn't WANT to do it - when all other hosts already had it.
Most likely also one of the reasons why they were so happy to be bought by Apple. Finally they could get rid of the competitors de facto "standards" again. Not that it helped at all. While Core Audio is a great driver model, the AU format still hasn't shown any superiority over the VST format. Whether this is because all major companies have to develop for both formats anyways or whether it's simply not better is beyond my knowledge, all I know is that (probably apart from slightly better developer support and a free developer package) there's nothing to write home about regarding the AU format for us mere end users. AU isn't any more efficient than VST and it doesn't offer anything special either. Oh well, yeah, it puts a burden on the programmers, who will now have to support one more format.
Besides, if the AU format is all that great, how comes Emapple doesn't release their own plugins in AU format as well, so they can be used in other hosts? Ah yeah, they yould be cracked. Also, less people would buy Logic - but why not just protect them along with the Logic dongle?

Ok, enough!

[machinesworking]

Sculpture cannot be matched by freeware. I work in Live mainly anymore, but Logic will stick around for Space Designer, Sculpture, Waveburner, and Soundiver.

[derek]

wow, a lot going on in one day. seems like ive talked about a touchy topic here. sascha and sal, thanks for your
calm posts that stay on the subject. i can happily discuss this way and will just ignore the BS rest of the thread.


ok, so first things first: i never planned to post a list because im currently on tour, not near my main daw with the entire
plugin collection, because i dont know plugin names by heart and frankly, because theres no reason why i would have to
"prove" a statement like "in a world with 3000 freeware plugins, 100 factory plugins in host A vs 50 factory plugins
in host B isnt the big issue it used to be" to a raging group of applemagic warriors. after all, my statement was not
directed to longtime logic fans that feel that the plugin list is one of the few remaining
plusses for logic and thus a holy cow that has to be defended at all costs,
but a note to the guy whos just looking for a real life alternative. and yes, my statement remains the same.

i could leave it at that at this point, because i really dont give a shit about what spaceman thinks about me or
whether jens thinks my posts are "the biggest pile of crap" or whatever. but since you two guys made such an effort to
get this one back on track i guess i owe you one, so i will go into more detail. dont expect me to go through
the entire list plugin by plugin. i really got better and more important stuff to do. but for the discussions sake,
i will cover all the essential areas and list stuff to a point where you either get my point, or you dont.
its gonna be a long post (i type fast), but since so many asked for this, i dont wanna hear complaints about the lenght
and will now brabble without remorse ;-)


so, lets start with the absolute essentials, bread and butter, dynamics. i already mentioned the fish fillets. its a fine
example for the problem of this discussion and how i cant convince you guys anyway. see, i mention these plugins which,
in my humble opinion, indeed "kill" the logic dynamics *big time*, and i get answers a la "the fish fillets arent the best in
the world either, and you can use logics compression for quite a lot of things". yes, thats true. but really, saschas stuff
comes with soft sat, opto behaviour emulation, dynamic frequency correction, a parallel processing mode and other goodies.
compared to a compressor that is about as forgiving and as asthaetically appealing as a yamaha 02r channel strip compressor,
i would say, yes indeed, that "kills". more dynamics: gating, expansion, deessing, enveloping - all nicely covered by the fish fillets,
dominion paints nice attacks on top of your signals as youd expect an enveloper to do, gives you saschas magneto style tape saturation
as an option while its at it, floorfish is a super smooth operating
expander, works frequency dependant, sidechain, switchable softknee detection...all you could ask for in an expander/gate,
and the deesser, well, its up there with the rendeesser, nuff said.
doesnt leave much to be desired, does it? especially not in comparison to the logic counterparts - sorry, but the logic
compressor, *in my opinion*, looks really bad compared to this, its one of those unforgiving plugin compressors
that are bitchy as hell. sure you can get that thing to sound ok. but by that logic, even the UAD fairchild would just be
"another option" in additition to a 02r comrpessor and not "kill" it, and thats where it becomes pretty ridiculous semantics IMO.
you find one of those essential to have, be my guest, take more or less any of the 5865344 VST compressors
from the late 90s, they all have that kind of behaviour.
still not satisfied - ok, lets add the pretty cool solid state logic LMC1, a freeware compressor or two with sidechain for the people
that dont think the sound of a compressor is worth patching a sidechain manually, kjaerhus classic, mdsp and say 5 more to add some
colors to your palette, and be it "because you can". voila, a pretty monstrous bunch that stands in front of that logic compressor
whose archievement is that it "aint all that bad", huh? id say that "kills" quite a bit.

but wait, theres more you say, theres the cool multiband! hah! multiband! the stuff you usually pay a lot for to get it as part
of one of those overpriced waves bundles! hmmm...just like the g multiband, the c3 multiband, the...no, wait, lets only list one, the
IQ4gui. hmmmm...NICE one. i looked the name up of this one just for you guys now. internal L/C/R split for processing (compress
the middle but leave L/R alone), individually for each band (compress just L/R of the trebles, leaving the center, i.e. the lead
vocal alone), plus sidechain for each band (compress frequency x depending on frequency Y, of course again with L/C/R split).

that this thing is freeware is simply unbelievable. and is if werent enough, it also features expansion and inverse modes,
an awesome user interface that makes even this complex beast very accessible, while still giving you access to all parameters
in detail unlike many plugins that simply become "user friendly" by hiding parameters. does this one "kill"? well, if you ask me,
ooooh yes. an absolute must have.

that leaves, uh, the limiter. the logic one sounds very much like the L1 to me. ill be honest here - i didnt look very closely yet,
i once opened it during a limiter shootout in a mastering session but it got its ass kicked quickly by the sony plugs that then
followed in the list. due to my lack of desire for mediocre limiters, i will cut it some slack and say its not "killed" by
the classic limiter (allthough that wouldnt surprise me one bit, given the amazing quality of the stuff kjaerhus gives away for
free) or any of the other 61 search results i just got for freeware limiters, but its probably "only" a plugin thats easily replaced.
hey, look, im retreading! ;-)

ok, so whats next...hm...bread and butter, weve had bread, ok lets do butter and equalizers. well thats an easy one for me:
replace the linear phase one with one of the two dozen freeware linear phase ones (i hate linear phase eqs, and buying
the expensive stuff when there was so much hype about them some years ago was a real waste of money for me, given how much
they smear in the lower frequencies), and as your friend for all mixing purposes (read: the eq you *really* like to use),
take the paris eq. you know, the one with the not so sexy interface. yeah, how can that thing kill the logic eq! it doesnt have
the beatiful blue interface! well, boost the trebles at 14 KHZ by say 15 DB (digital eqs hate it if you ask them to do that)
and judge for yourself. candidate one: "ick!". candidate two: well, ok, not quite a passive pultec, but nicely smooth.
and the winner is: the paris eq! damn these ensoniq folks, just how did they do it, its old code for their
DSPs from 98! i dunno, but i do know, it doesnt sound nearly as much like broken glass, and that qualifies for a killer.
in MY humble opinion of course :-) dont like it? you like the sound of breaking glass and want an eq that "bites" more?
hm...theres probably another 50 eqs out there. im sure you will find one that sounds pleasing to your
ears. make sure to continually use extreme settings to separate
the good ones from the bad ones, cause, all eqs sound somewhat ok with the usually "harmless" real life settings to some extend -
just like the logic eq (ok, that was mean ;-)

its getting a bit boring, right? ok, lets do some of the sound generators. sascha already feared the obvious answer: well, of course
you can replace something like a clavinet (of all things!) with clavinet samples, and of course a rhodes piano is still emulated in
a much less sterile way via samples. find a patch with say 3 crossfading layers and hopefully its not sampled quite perfectly
but brings some dirt with it, put a nice amp simulator on top of it (guess thats the moment to note that i find that the logic
amp simulator just plain sucks and has absolutely *nothing* of value to offer but a shiny interface, and is absolutely killed by the amp suite
of whatever that plugin line from boss overdrive to marshall amp is called), and you have a rhodes sound that - to my ears -
sounds sooo much better than the sterile EVP that completely lacks any air and character. and no, i will not list a link here
to some sampleset. lets not be childish. search yourself, its no rocket science. and if i wouldnt use the NI elektrik piano mostly,
i would still take my old ASR patches over the sterileness of physical models anytime, theyre about 4 MB big.
im sure theres a lot more sophisticated stuff on the net than that. and as i said, route it through
a nice amp, add some tremolo (take one of the 658364324 free tremolo plugins out there for that, i like ndc trem+ but im sure theres others),
maybe a touch tape saturation (does logic have one? i forgot.
if not, take saschas THD or if youre a steinberg user, magneto is still quite a bit better than its reputation).

and while were at it, lets talk about samplers. as i said from the start (which several people tried to turn around into some sort
of "retread" on my part later on, whatever) you have to replace the EXS with a commercial product. of course we dont take the
extremely expensive kontakt but the much cheaper vsampler. aaaah, lets compare vsampler for a second with EXS shall we?
hmmm...individual parameter sets? kills. multitimbral? kills. (note to the anti-multitimbral-police: youre not forced to use
multitimbrality - so having it is an objective plus regardless of your personal preference). multiple freeform envelopes? kills. completely free
mod routings with up to 4 LFOs, step sequencers, smoothed noise etc yadda yadda? kills. automapping plus pitch detection plus
a fullscreen mapping editor with mouse operation for everything from key crossfades to velocity crossfades and alternative
views for easier management in patches with overlapping velocity crossfades as in bigger string libraries? kills.
sample editor inside with multiple loops and alternative play modes? kills. filter? hm...the EXS filter is also cool.
but wait, you could also use i.e. the frohmage as filter in vsampler (shit im giving the good stuff away in advance). ok,
in all fairness, while the frohmage kills the EXS filter big time IMO, it also needs more performance, so lets call it a draw.
hooray for the EXS filter. import of, i dunno, about 10 different sampler formats? havent looked that closely at the EXS in
that regard, so i will guess here that the EXS in all its boringness will only import akai, giga and maybe one other format,
so im assuming its yet another round that goes to vsampler hands down.
and then on to my favourite: internal effects? you know, the things that have been standard in workstations since the
early nineties, that stuff thats so handy because you can actually save your rhodes sample together with the tremolo and
amp you routed it through? EXS? oh, no effects. damn. that would even be killed by halion and kontakt or any sampler that comes
with some onboard effects. in vsampler though you can go a little further and use VST plugins. you can use them on individual
samples (nice to be able to have individual settings for samples eh!), you can use them on sample groups or on the sum output
of the instrument, and you can route any modulator of the sampler to any parameter of the plugins. oh, and of course theres the
whole field of cycle round robin, "if - then" functionality, sampleset switching and all that advanced script stuff that makes
so many of todays sample patches so realistic. well, what do you think? yeah, EXS no go, so again, "kills".

to sum it up: i would say that the vsampler not only kills but more or less destroys the EXS in almost every regard. if youre
seriously into sounddesign and need the tiniest bit of flexibility, the EXS is just a lousy POS, its basically a sampleplayer
for existing libraries with some offset parameters. thats closer to sampletank than to a real sampler in my book. which is fine,
and i already hear people say "yeah, thats why the EXS rules,
its so easy to use and stuff" - yet, todays samplers, and that includes vsampler, are clever enough to hide or grey out anything you dont
need unless you ask for it, and also feature a dumbass-macro view such as the EXS one. actually, only halion doesnt do this
(hiding parts of its interface that is, it also has a macro view and unfortunately even insists on opening in it by default).

ok, next. i find it somewhat funny, but since the delays have been mentioned again and again, lets talk about delays for a second.
lets start with the legendary logic tape delay. cool plugin :-) no, seriously, for a long time it was actually the only delay
i knew that allowed you to have feedback values higher than 100 percent and that made it very special, i remember even bouncing
some stuff down to open it in logic because i needed that "ramp to hell" effect during a production long ago. but thats some years ago,
and not only are there now more tape delay plugins than youd ever need that all do exactly that, theres also an exact clone
of the logic tape delay, the analogic delay (yeah i know you all know it already, but hey, i was repeatedly asked to make this stupid list
even though its totally ridiculous, so dont complain now ;-). the only difference is that it features a tape saturation where
logics tape delay uses bare clipping. does that mean it kills the logic tape delay. nah, lets say its just a bit better. what if
we throw the more feedback machine into the equasion as well...hmmm...id say that one indeed kills the tape delay quite a bit,
dont you think? so we have the MFB for the really complex nerdy stuff, the analog delay for the simple a&r manager pleasing delay games,
the bionic delay as a stereo version of the tape delay, lets add the classic delay (true stereo! often overlooked detail! i.e. nice to
have a "mono delay at every pan position" avaiable), a couple of the other more fancy delay monsters out there (im too lazy
to look up the names here, suffice it to say that theres two dozens of cool delays from reverse delays to ducking delays to multitap
delays to hybrids), and i would say, damn, another entire plugin category killed without mercy.

shall i go on? ok, lets talk about reverb. sascha did it again and already knew what i would be posting. dear sascha, the
fact that you need a host with actually working PDC to use sir is no point when the host that still f**ks it up in one
way or the other is the program to be replaced. sir is one fine plugin, of course it doesnt "kill" because
like all impulse response plugins, its basically a sampler than can only sound as good as the samples it uses. what shall it be?
lexicon samples, TC samples, altiverb samples (what an irony...the company that started its business by sampling other
peoples work is now facing the same problems by being resampled), quantec samples, real life samples?
its all to be had for free in the net. oh yes, you have to download it. wow, live can be so hard for a sound engineer!
i wont go into the whole "if we had this ten years ago we would have..." thing, but man, if we had this ten years ago we would have... ;-)
then theres the ES-1 (its much better than its reputation!) and the ES-2 (even better!). ok, how shall i put this...ok, ill put it this
way: *imitates homer simpson* boooooooooring. theres a reason why i listed sculpture as the only unreplaceable synth in my very first post. that
one is not replacable, its a fine physical modelling synth, its original, it produces interesting sounds and is a great bonus.
but the ESses? aw come on, what do you think, how many synths are there on KVR? 300? 400? what shall it be today sir? fm? substractive?
additive? wavetable? a hybrid? either way, choose one out of several dozen synths, there is not one halfway classic
synth patch that hasnt been done to death in the freeware scene. so i will take the lazy way out here and say
that a more or less random list of 20 synths of your choice will probably be a wider sound palette than the two
ESses. i really dont feel like going into this very much cause frankly, "a new virtual synth"(TM)
is about as exciting to me as "yet another compressor"(TM). allthough logic could really use a new one, but i digress ;-)

and the same is true for specialists. yeah, so pretend that the spectral gate is an essential. i say to this, no, its not, or if
you belong to the three people for which a spectral gate is something essential, then forget everything i said and logic
is definetly the only option for you there is and the rest just sucks, sucks sucks! to the rest i would say, its a special effect, and if you
look at special effects in their entirety, of course the freeware scene that traditionally LOVES the sfx category kills the handful of
stuff logic has to offer (even if you count the crap reverbs as special effects ;-). theres reversinators (one of my favs ;-), there are complex monsters that do step
sequenced weirdness of all categorys, pitching, filtering, ringmod, reverse, delay, stutter, and all together now please. dont find a good
setting? press the random knob and have fun. theres bit reducers, multiband distortion, multiband gates, pitch following oscillators, formant
filters, oh i forgot to talk about modulation effects, one second, theres autotune for free (gplugs), theres singing monks and exotic synths
that operate on just noise and filterbanks (i think its called chimera, and its the first synth in a long time that really felt very original
and special to me), there are weirdo synths 1-250 that emulate everything from old nintendo chips to commodores sid and ataris pokey, theres
plugins that simulate buffer underruns (with or without timing sync), and so on and so on. im sure there are enough special effects for
everyones needs. my usual strategy is to "wander through my plugin list" when i need a special effect and dont already have a very
clear picture about what it shall be. its fun!

speaking of fun, didnt somebody bring up the "point" that one would "have to install and test all these plugins"? oh, yes you have! and its so
much fun! i mean, really, if you dont have fun doing this, then why are you doing it at all? and btw, i dont know about AUs, but for
VSTs, "testing and installing" means "putting in the folder and listening to it". am i sensing the attempt to make it sound like
more work than it is? tsk tsk tsk...that desparate?

ok, mod effects, that would be phasing and flanging and chorus, lets throw in resonant filters and tremolo
too. hm...kjaerhus? supaphaser? ndc? the old blueline plugs (cool stuff that was!). mda? i cant
look into your head so i dont know what you find about i.e. logics phaser so special - is it 2, 4, 8, 16 stage? mixed with which
polarity to the signal? does it modulate with a sine, a triangle or what? im sure theres a plugin for each possible variation.
and some of them also have sync, so your feature wish shall be fullfilled too.
so, because its very probable that you can do absolutely everything with the avaiable freeware mod effects
that the logic ones can do, but not vice versa, id say heres to another kill, and be it because in a subjective world of sound,
the only objective thing one could say about modulation effects is that a selection of several different sounding flangers is better than one.
oh and as filter, of course we take the mighty frohmage filter, that phat monster. sure, it doesnt follow envelopes, we will take kjaerhus again
for these applications, also sounds great, follows envelopes/input and lfo and features all modes, lopass, hipass, bandpass, bandreject.
or one of the other 25 which i may have in my list but dont remember right now.

and you know what, i will stop here. if you followed this post, by now you should have either gotten my point or you just dont want
to. to me its absolutely obvious and i dont quite see whats so surprising about a statement that in an audio world thats drowning in
plugins, the included default plugins of a host become much less significant. whether you think the above list "kills" logic plugins
or is just a "weak compromise" as some wanted to put it, well, maybe that depends on how you look at it, but the way i look at it,
its a fairly obvious fact that you can almost all the time list some killer freeware plugin for ANY category and that you find
a superior plugin for a category is the rule and not the exception. to me, the above list is not a compromise but indeed
way way way better, both in quality and quantity. im constantly amazed about the stuff you get for free these days. and remember, all this time
we are pretending that other hosts have no plugins at all, which of course is not the case in real life.
when i first posted, the only areas where i couldnt think of one was sampling (stoneage EXS being replaced for 100 euros by vsampler,
which is superiour in almost every regard) and the physical modelling synth, and i listed both exceptions long before people started to try to
"come out on top" in the schoolyard flamefest they unleashed by "pointing that out" to me as if i hadnt talked about it before.
whatever, really :-)

oh, and i have to make an admission: i have absolutely NO idea about freeware vocoders. i dont use vocoders very often, and when
i use them, i have an original hardware roland SVC-350 (in all its kraftwerkish glory),
NIs vokator and prosoniqs orange vocoder is still somewhere in my list as well,
so i never got around to actually trying freeware vocoders yet. but you know what, from my experience, i can only guess that it will
be the same as with the other categorys. i dont know it really, so its just a guess and i may be wrong, especially since i never
used the logic vocoder either (its just not an effect i need every day), but you know, i didnt post here to "be right" but
because my opinion was that these days, the freeware scene is so impressive that it more often than not outperforms commercial alternatives.
and since someone (guess it was one of the fanboys) said something snobby like "you can probably do fine with those freeware plugins
of yours", let me reply equally snobby that i post this from the perspective of a fulltime worker who owns a huge portion of
the usual suspects from the whole UAD range to waves to NI to various singled out products from other companies. yeah, im one of those
people that BUY all these plugins. that this whole discussion is completely fake because everyone who didnt pay for the state of the art
plugins out there still uses them as cracks and thus has access to all of the finest software ANYWAY is just one ironic footnote to this
"discussion".

and with that, im outta here. those who had an open mind probably got an idea about what i was trying to say. i wouldnt have made
this long post were it not for the calm posts from sal and sascha, so damn you for making me waste my time like that ;-) no seriously,
thanks for stopping the thread from going downhill.


now enter jens or whatshisname stage right: "that was the biggest pile of..." - yeah, have a nice day too :-)

[derek]

another thing i forgot to write - sascha, you repeatedly brought up the point of "ergonomics" and performance (i.e. when comparing EVP to mrtramp) - well, you know, ergonomics are always a question of what youre used to. i know people that swear by the circle operation because you
can make ultrafine settings by moving the mouse further away from the parameter and up the resolution by that. yet, its a question of taste.
i prefer linear too. good hosts let you choose. but this is really all subjective stuff to get used to. since i like the blockfish very much
and even with the entire UAD and waves extravaganza at my hand still often like to use blockfish anyway, i can tell you, you can very well
get used to it just as well, and sheesh, that thing is so worth it.

and about the performance thing - well, by that definition, the cubase overdrive is better than NI guitarrig 2. in the days of dual dualcore
processing, ill take guitarrig 2 anyway :-)