An alternative to Logic

[Sal Handsome]

wow, a lot going on in one day. seems like ive talked about a touchy topic here. sascha and sal, thanks for your
calm posts that stay on the subject. i can happily discuss this way and will just ignore the BS rest of the thread.......


..........................................................SNIPPITY SNIP ................................................


.......now enter jens or whatshisname stage right: "that was the biggest pile of..." - yeah, have a nice day too

Damm! The boy can write!!
Now, that was the biggest pile of... wait a minute! : )
Derek,
going over the list I realize we have a different concept of the word "KILL".
The fact that the sampler you suggested is not free makes it a non starter. Remember the criteria.
Also, you suggest replacing the EVD and EVP with samples?
I am going to let Sascha and others who are better informed than me on the other PC plugs examine your other suggestions.
There's something else that I sensed with each of your posts. The one recurring theme throughout your posts is how every plug in Logic sucks. Even the most popular ones. I find that amazing and intriguing, so I tried to understand where you are coming from and after some searching I found this little gem:

- get an intel imac, but switch sequencers. apples unlogic semipro (sorry) has already been ported. i personally hate logic with a passion due to a long history of bad luck with me and logic studios, so i wont comment any further)

This comment of yours I found in a thread by somebody inquiring about an iMac as a DAW.
You hate the program. You personally hate the program with a passion.
You accused everyone on this thread of fanboyism when in fact it is you who has a personal agenda against it.
This comment alone shatters any credibility your comments, suggestions or even opinion, may have when discussing Logic.
Furthermore, you should not participate in any discussion about Logic as it would be a disservice to anyone reading the threads trying to gather information about the app. Your personal agenda against it would only smear the thread with inaccurate or perhaps even false information.
You might not even be aware of it, but you have programmed yourself to hate it and always talk about it in a negative fashion.
There's no point in going over the list and comparing and commenting, because your answers would always be the same: Kill, suck.
Good luck,
Sal

[machinesworking]

and frankly, because theres no reason why i would have to
"prove" a statement like "in a world with 3000 freeware plugins, 100 factory plugins in host A vs 50 factory plugins
in host B isnt the big issue it used to be" to a raging group of applemagic warriors. after all, my statement was not
directed to longtime logic fans that feel that the plugin list is one of the few remaining
plusses for logic and thus a holy cow that has to be defended at all costs,
but a note to the guy whos just looking for a real life alternative. and yes, my statement remains the same.

Why is it that here at KVR every time Logic is brought up, and people get into debate about it, the "pro" logic side is cast as "applemagic warriors", mac fanboys, zealots, etc.? Not directed at you per say Derek, just a general question about the climate at KVR.

In all fairness Logic comes with more than just the plug ins, Waveburner, and Soundiver, both are useful, and honestly Space Designer has more functional control over the convolution, IE it's better than SIR, more comparable to Altiverb. I have to disagree with you about the EVD, I think it's got a unique sound, and plays better than and free sampler version I've used.
Seriously, the free stuff is great, and some of it is better,but not all of it is.

AFA Logic VS other DAWs, I find strengths in all the established players. After messing with most of them for extended periods of time, you realize that they all get one or two areas better than the competition. To me, if I were to attend a college that taught on Pro Tools, I would get Pro tools LE, if on Sonar, a PC an Sonar, on Logic, a mac an Logic.... why spend thousands of dollars on your education etc. then spend time transferring files between DAWs or using the lab etc?

[derek]

The fact that the sampler you suggested is not free makes it a non starter. Remember the criteria.

easy there tiger, thats a criteria you came up with later. i said from the beginning that the EXS had to be replaced by
a commercial product and just pointed out that it doesnt have to be the expensive kontakt but can be the rather inexpensive
vsampler. you know, its getting tiresome to repeat that again and again. but i can see why you dont want to get into more
detail in that comparison. that list of feature comparisons is quite painful isnt it ;-)

Also, you suggest replacing the EVD and EVP with samples?

indeed. i personally am of the opinion that physical modelling is pretty hyped when it comes to emulations of the real world,
and the fact that the supposed-to-happen physical modelling revolution just didnt want to happen in the nineties, no matter
how much money giants like yamaha pushed into it, is a pretty clear sign than im not alone with that feeling. theres
always the nice hype about physical modelling being oh so flexible, but it comes at a high price, they usually lack the depth,
"air", texture and real life dirt of the real thing, which is much better captured by samples,
and the EVP is a prime example for this actually.

I am going to let Sascha and others who are better informed than me on the other PC plugs examine your other suggestions.

yes, its probably a good idea not to comment when you dont know the stuff. which of course leads to the question, since you
dont know all that stuff, how can you partipate at all? you know, thats usually not my attitude,
but with all the "do you know enough about logic to be worthy commenting on it" BS i faced here, i find it interesting to
note that, while i indeed know logic pretty well, you obviously dont know much at all about the pc freeware scene as you just admitted. whoops...

There's something else that I sensed with each of your posts. The one recurring theme throughout your posts is how every plug in Logic sucks.

nah, some stuff is quite ok and its a handy tool collection with some nice highlights (which i mentioned several times).
no more, no less. that doesnt make it suck by principle, but it also doesnt make it this somehow absolutely untouchable ultracool pluginbundle
some people like to make it. THAT is pure hype. the fact that you guys are seriously argueing that a couple dozen logic
plugins can take it up with the endless variety of todays freeware scene, consisting of thousands of plugins, is VERY telling.
if you would just claim that its a nice collection of cute synths, a true physical modelling highlight plus a
handy tool collection, nothing to write home about but nice to have, you know, no big deal.
but no, its gotta be the BEST, and of course freeware has got NO CHANCE against it. thats some serious hype right there.

Even the most popular ones.

i would say that the "most popular one" is easily the EXS for its daily workhorse qualities, which is fair enough. yet i
feel i have lined out in a pretty detailed way how it compares to real samplers like vsampler (or kontakt, for that matter). im not saying
everybody needs that. but the sheer amount of stuff you can do in vsampler which you cant do in the EXS (including such
nice real life advantages like VST effects as part of instrument patches that even sample playback users would surely
appreciate) should show enough how i dont just dislike the EXS by principle but have real life reason for preferring something
else. wanna blame me for recommending the stuff i find better? whee :-)

You hate the program. You personally hate the program with a passion.

now look whos shifting focus the moment i posted a plugin list :-) so we are talking about "logic the program" now?
ok, yeah, i dont like it at all, and like to joke about that quite a bit ("hate it with a passion" and all, i usually like to make
clear from the get go how much i "like" the program). thats because
the audio editing is so bad and im forced to deal with that on a regular basis. its not too serious you know, its just a
stupid computer program that annoys me while i record music. no big deal.

so, in what way does that mean that i am not allowed to comment on the plugins? because im biased? sure i am, i didnt hide that did i?
if i remember correctly, i started my post in this thread with a remark like "to me personally, ANYTHING is a viable alternative to logic", so
i guess you cant really blame me for some hidden agenda here, and your forum search was quite a waste of time, actually reading my posts in this thread would have been enough.

anyway, the one thing doesnt have anything to with the other. if logic would get a best of in audio editing in the next version,
combining the best goodies from nuendo, samplitude and protools (say, nuendos die hard flexibility, samplitudes object based
parameter orgys and protools playlists), i would find logics audio editing really cool then, yet, that wouldnt change my
opinion about the plugins. why should it.

You accused everyone on this thread of fanboyism when in fact it is you who has a personal agenda against it.

sheesh, calm down. im stalking your sequencer! is that what you think? LOL. no, really, calm down a bit, ok? lets talk about
the plugins? oh, wait, you dont know them. er...

This comment alone shatters any credibility your comments, suggestions or even opinion, may have when discussing Logic.

may i put some pitchshifting (downwards) and some snareroll samples below this statement? a little vibrato to make the voice tremble
accordingly might also add to the drama :-)

Furthermore, you should not participate in any discussion about Logic as it would be a disservice to anyone reading the threads trying to gather information about the app. Your personal agenda against it would only smear the thread with inaccurate or perhaps even false information.

now thats what you would like to have, right, that people who dont like logic (and can list reasons why they dont, but dont get me started)
are not allowed to comment? like, when somebody starts a thread asking whether he should get logic or something else, only the people who love logic should be allowed to comment? thats pretty funny, actually.

You might not even be aware of it, but you have programmed yourself to hate it and always talk about it in a negative fashion.

well, you know, id rather have an update in the audio editing area (and a healthy dose of bugfixing in the audio engine timing area,
getting sample resolution instead of tick resolution everywhere, sample precise PDC everywhere and more stuff like that) than some
hobby psychologic analysis about why i dont like logic. believe it or not, there are real life reasons to not like logic other
than psychologic disorder. and just so you know, i can bitch equally loud about stuff when it comes to my own sequencer (nuendo)
when i want it to have stuff i find desirable (that would currently be a list of mostly samplitude features im jealous of, and half a dozen
protools advantages). look me up on steinbergs nuendo forum.

There's no point in going over the list and comparing and commenting,

for you anyway - we know that now :-)

because your answers would always be the same: Kill, suck.

you have to go as far as to my last post (that long one) to see thats not true. if somethings really exceptional
i mention that. if something is just average and im asked to compile a list of plugins that in my opinion kill that
plugin, well then so i do (now THATS not right either or what? ;-). that doesnt mean the logic version sucks.
but when even such simple things as the goddamn stereo delay is portrayed as being unreplacable, then a reality check
is in order IMO.

[spaceman]

Derek, you're full of shit.

You obviously though that writing a 20 page post would mask the fact that you're talking complete bollocks, and as ever are completely blind of the original discussion:

"Give us a list of FREE plugins that KILL the login plugins"

We didn't come up with that, you did. you want me to quote your post again?

it is true, logic comes with the biggest pile of soso plugins of all the hosts out there. but, we are at KVR here. we are discussing in a forum of the site that gives links to *hundreds* of freeware plugins, and the list of stuff that kills the stoneage algorithms in logics internal plugs (and most other hosts plugs as well, for that matter) is too long to even start. one evening of happy downloading and toying around and you have about 15 times as many plugins, with most of them way better than any of that old stuff that was programmed for 400 mhz CPUs many years ago. that turns the mighty "it comes with all these plugins!"(TM) argument into "its killer if free physical modelling is a daily essential to you and it even comes with the industrys most outdated sampling plugin for free".

and the mathematically challenged

take the gplugs, the fish fillets and the kjaerhus classic stuff as a starting point, that should take care of 80% of your list within 5 minutes

All you've done in a thousand too many words is list a load of COMMERCIAL PLUGINS that don't even KILL the logic plugins, in a lot of cases they are arguably worse.

You call me and the others here fanboys and the only reason I can think of is because we challenged your nonsense argument.

I'm a Logic user and that's that. I don't give a flying f**k that you -obviously- hate Logic (Why? is to to difficult to operate for you?) The only thing I questioned was your statement "I can easily list FREE plugins that KILL the Logic plugin bundle"..

and so far, apart from a 20 page rambling about COMMERCIAL plugins..Sonalksis plugs? Ohmforce? NI? Vsampler? ... what the f**k?!?!? why don't you list an SSL desk to compare eqs.. you've still delivered nothing. The usual bollocks of "ooh, I don't want to go into that anymore because your are all obviously fanboys".. and you're completely blind to the fact that your patronising and arrogant posts was what got you the defensive reaction in the first place.

you're full of shit mate and a 20 page post containing nothing but lunatic rambling isn't going to change the discussion in your favourite.

All you had to do is say "well, maybe a free list of plugs that kill logic was a bit to far stretched" and we would have been discussing Logic in a normal way, just like Sascha is the first to admit the shortcomings of Logic, we can all quite easily discuss these things in a normal way. But you obviously just wanted to win the argument at all costs and you obviously thought that writing more words would get you there.

tough f**king luck though

so.. what's your next argument going to be? I swear to much? I have to many post so I obviously don't have time to make music? I'm not a pro? What's next? I can't wait for the next weak argument to get you out of it..

[DevonB]

Further, if you look around, you won't even find a free replacement for a plugin as simple as Logics StereoDelay - you'd need a combination of two delays to get close.

I found a freeware replacement for the stereo delay. Have you chekced out dB Audioware's Tempo Delay?



Admittedly, it's been quite a while since I looked at Logic's stereo delay. What is this missing?

Devon

[spaceman]

Further, if you look around, you won't even find a free replacement for a plugin as simple as Logics StereoDelay - you'd need a combination of two delays to get close.

I found a freeware replacement for the stereo delay. Have you chekced out dB Audioware's Tempo Delay?



Admittedly, it's been quite a while since I looked at Logic's stereo delay. What is this missing?

Devon

at first sight I'd say cross feeding..
can't talk about the quality, haven't heard this one in use

[stag]

Really as i said all the plugs in the market namely the awfull one's that run only on PC like rgc's were made for the SX morons to buy.
Some of them like the Waves SSL are more expensive than SX almost as much as the superior sequencer, but yeha logic as better options than these, even better than UAD's precision bundle, for pete's sake i even read a fortunate Logic user saying that the logic Ampsim was far better than Amplitube 2, well some PC guys like myself think Amplitube 2 is great but only a tiny bit better than simulanalog Guitar suite which incidentally is freeware... so you're probably rigth... nevertheless the Simulanalog guy is now working at IKM.

Bye.

PS Don't blame us for thinking Apples are bad like we're some kind of bananas, blame the Apples.

[RChler]

if you dont align to video, EnergyXT is your new host

[Sascha Franck]

Thanks Devon, that's a good looking one. But as spaceman said, it's missing x-feed. And unfortunately (very important for a lot of things I'm doing), it's missing the swing/shuffle slider as well.

To derek: I won't comment word by word on your long installment about freeware (or not so freeware) plugins replacing Logics internal ones. Just so much: You obviously don't know some of Logics plugins well.
Regarding EXS vs. whatever sampler: The EXS does have a round robin feature, it's also got keyswitches and the likes. In its latest incarnation it has also gotten a mouse-able editor. Further, something all the other samplers don't offer: It's got a nice automapping feature (chromatically, by embedded note number or by sample name) none of the others have. Further, adding the most common modulations (such as, say, velocity to cutoff) takes a few milliseconds whereas it's a PITA to do such things in, say, Kontakt. So yes, simplicity *has* its advances. Why else would I continue using it?
Sure, the VSampler way of embedding VST plugins into a patch is kickass, no question. So, I'll give you that. And it's got quite some other advances. What VSampler however has as well is a GUI scaring me away in as little as 30 seconds...
Oh, and does it offer sidechaining?

Regarding the ES2: You didn't really check it out, did you? Otherwise you wouldn't say it'd be replaceable by freeware all so easily. But hey, what about a little contest? I'll post an ES2 MP3 and the corresponding MIDI file and you just slap it onto your replacements.

Regarding the EVP88: If I need a more or less authentic Rhodes sound, I'll use something else, yes. But which free e-piano is there to give you the EVP sound with all of its options?

And well, there's still the EVD6. Yeah, a proper sampleset will do the job for an authentic clavinet (got a link for a comparably great free one?). But what about the additional options? Again, you may find more authentic sounds, but you won't find anything even remotely close doing what the EVD6 has on offer.

Also, I already admitted that it's more or less easy to find great free replacements for the EQ and compression department. So there.
But what about an easily side-chainable compressor? Oh yeah, you're going to go for the quad-channel-routing workaround in Cubase?

And what about the StereoDelay? Which one has got 2 independent delays, x-feed and shuffle (you may find that esoteric, but I'm using these functions all the freaking time)?

[DHR53]

Honestly, I've owned (and own) a number of "commercial" plugs that were supposedly better than a lot of Logic's stuff (including Amplitude) and most of em' I got rid of. They just weren't (to my ears) noticably better! The only thing out there (for me anyway) that I wouldn't get rid of, is Vintage Warmer... and I use it all the time! One thing I've noticed since moving to Mac DAW, is all the freeware crap I had piled on my PC, well most of it I never used... As a matter of fact I had to delete massive quantities of it every 3 months or so just so I could find what I was looking for... Some of it was good, but I usually ended up using the "commercial" equivalent of my favorites, which I have on the Mac anyway? So what did I give up going to the Mac... AFAIK, not much I could do practically everything with 5 VIs... FM7, Absynth, Pro-53, Albino, Blue... throw in a drum machine, and a lot of Vintage Warmer...

But I do really like ES2 also and EXS24... you can run a million of the latter... very little cpu!!

[beej]

Ah well, I was a Logic fanboy *way* before Logic even had audio and plugins were just a glint in some geeky DSP coders eye.

This would have been quite an interesting discussion, by I find it tiresome when everybody's words are twisted on each reply, to help prove their point, as if the all important thing is winning the argument.

My take on this is that Logic comes with a good selection of plugs, better than bundled plugs that come with any other DAW, and that this in general is a *good thing*. Some of them are weak (I personally don't particularly like the limiters, multipressor, the non-convo reverbs and some other ones), some are underrated, some are perfectly respectable and some are downright superb.

All can be augmented by commercial and free stuff, if not improved then at least extended upon. The Logic people have access to all the freeware stuff in addition to the Logic plugs, so they really do get the best of both worlds (cake - eating - yum!)

I'm not going to comment on people's postings, despite finding much to both agree and disagree with, because I can't trust any of you to not descend back into slanging matches

And despite being a so-called Logic fanboy (and on a Mac here, as well as PC) which makes me a borderline fundamentalist on Kvr, I'm not so blind as to think Logic is pefect and better at everything in every way - it is not at all.

But it's a damn sight better than overdubbing between two cassette decks...

Now everyone - CHILL DA F*** OUT! Who's for a beer..?

[spaceman]

so we're borderline fundamentalists now too?

[beej]

Certainly seems the case - the magic words "Mac", "Logic" and "Apple" when included in a post automatically trigger the KVR Macism Patrol and you have to work hard to justify your actions.

I think it's the only reason I keep my PC around, just to prove I'm not *all* Mac...

(Nobody expected the Apple Inquisition...)

[Sascha Franck]

Now everyone - CHILL DA F*** OUT! Who's for a beer..?

Not me, at least not yet. Goddamn musical rehearsals - I'll gladly post a screenshot excerpt of some of the guitar sheets I'm having to deal with... (No.1 of 100 ways to make a guitarplayer shut up: Put a piece of sheet music in front of him).
But hey, due to all that shit my funds for the MacBook are almost complete (even if right now I'm quite tempted to get the quad xeon model instead - any opinions?).

[beej]

They are both lovely machines. Given the choice between them, I'd stay portable, the flexibility is superb, and unlike my lil ol Powerbook, the latest ones seem to be plenty powerful.