An alternative to Logic

[DHR53]

Make sure the apps you're going to use are UB! I use CS2 everyday, and it was too slow for me in Rosetta... I sent my MB Pro back and got a Dual G5... Too bad, really because it was a slick machine, but Summer of 07' was too long for me to wait!

[DevonB]

Thanks Devon, that's a good looking one. But as spaceman said, it's missing x-feed. And unfortunately (very important for a lot of things I'm doing), it's missing the swing/shuffle slider as well.

You can achieve the 'swing/shuffle' by adjusting the Units knob and Delay slider. Granted, it's not in percentages like Logic's was, but it achieves the reuslts you are wanting, yes? I used the slider as well, and this gives me what I need.

Another replacement, the Analogic delay for the tape delay -



Not sure if you knew about that one either.

Devon

[spaceman]

I quite like those delays, especialy http://www.kvraudio.com/get/892.html

quirky in a way but interesting results

[bduffy]

Best delay there is, Bionic Delay.

Too bad all the bottom controls are, like, two pixels big.

[Sal Handsome]

easy there tiger, thats a criteria you came up with later. i said from the beginning that the EXS had to be replaced by
a commercial product and just pointed out that it doesnt have to be the expensive kontakt but can be the rather inexpensive
vsampler. you know, its getting tiresome to repeat that again and again. but i can see why you dont want to get into more
detail in that comparison. that list of feature comparisons is quite painful isnt it

As I have already said previously, you already conceded that freeware cannot replace the EXS.

indeed. i personally am of the opinion that physical modelling is pretty hyped when it comes to emulations of the real world,
and the fact that the supposed-to-happen physical modelling revolution just didnt want to happen in the nineties, no matter
how much money giants like yamaha pushed into it, is a pretty clear sign than im not alone with that feeling. theres
always the nice hype about physical modelling being oh so flexible, but it comes at a high price, they usually lack the depth,
"air", texture and real life dirt of the real thing, which is much better captured by samples,
and the EVP is a prime example for this actually.

Wow. Why don't we just sample the other synths then. We would never need to buy anything else since we can sample everything.

yes, its probably a good idea not to comment when you dont know the stuff. which of course leads to the question, since you
dont know all that stuff, how can you partipate at all? you know, thats usually not my attitude,
but with all the "do you know enough about logic to be worthy commenting on it" BS i faced here, i find it interesting to
note that, while i indeed know logic pretty well, you obviously dont know much at all about the pc freeware scene as you just admitted. whoops...

The purpose of this challenge was to see if I could learn about some free plugs out there which might be a valuable addition to the toolset. (I have the fishfillets, tried the ambiance plug and others..)
While I admit not to know all the free plugs (does anybody?) I entered this thread armed with an open mind and a deep knowlegde of the Logic plugs. Something that has become rather obvious is that your knowledge of Logic's plugs is much more limited than you would believe.

nah, some stuff is quite ok and its a handy tool collection with some nice highlights (which i mentioned several times).
no more, no less. that doesnt make it suck by principle, but it also doesnt make it this somehow absolutely untouchable ultracool pluginbundle
some people like to make it. THAT is pure hype. the fact that you guys are seriously argueing that a couple dozen logic
plugins can take it up with the endless variety of todays freeware scene, consisting of thousands of plugins, is VERY telling.
if you would just claim that its a nice collection of cute synths, a true physical modelling highlight plus a
handy tool collection, nothing to write home about but nice to have, you know, no big deal.
but no, its gotta be the BEST, and of course freeware has got NO CHANCE against it. thats some serious hype right there.

You are distorting the thread once again. I challenged your point that free plugs out there KILL the Logic plugs. I compiled a list of the ones I am most familiar with and asked you to provide your alternatives, 1 or 2 of the choices you felt most killed the Logic plugs. I wanted to check out your suggestions, download them if I could or listen to other people's comments while I checked for samples on their respective sites. What we got several posts later is that there's no free replacement for EXS. There's no need for the physical modeling plugs since we can just use samples. While you claim there's 5865344 ( did you count them?) ways to replace, among others, the ES 1 or ES 2, you have yet to name any specifically. What's next? Let's sample them?

i would say that the "most popular one" is easily the EXS for its daily workhorse qualities, which is fair enough. yet i
feel i have lined out in a pretty detailed way how it compares to real samplers like vsampler (or kontakt, for that matter). im not saying
everybody needs that. but the sheer amount of stuff you can do in vsampler which you cant do in the EXS (including such
nice real life advantages like VST effects as part of instrument patches that even sample playback users would surely
appreciate) should show enough how i dont just dislike the EXS by principle but have real life reason for preferring something
else. wanna blame me for recommending the stuff i find better? whee

By popular I simply meant plugs that are generally regarded as being good. Mo more, no less.

now look whos shifting focus the moment i posted a plugin list so we are talking about "logic the program" now?
ok, yeah, i dont like it at all, and like to joke about that quite a bit ("hate it with a passion" and all, i usually like to make
clear from the get go how much i "like" the program). thats because
the audio editing is so bad and im forced to deal with that on a regular basis. its not too serious you know, its just a
stupid computer program that annoys me while i record music. no big deal.

so, in what way does that mean that i am not allowed to comment on the plugins? because im biased? sure i am, i didnt hide that did i?
if i remember correctly, i started my post in this thread with a remark like "to me personally, ANYTHING is a viable alternative to logic", so
i guess you cant really blame me for some hidden agenda here, and your forum search was quite a waste of time, actually reading my posts in this thread would have been enough.

anyway, the one thing doesnt have anything to with the other. if logic would get a best of in audio editing in the next version,
combining the best goodies from nuendo, samplitude and protools (say, nuendos die hard flexibility, samplitudes object based
parameter orgys and protools playlists), i would find logics audio editing really cool then, yet, that wouldnt change my
opinion about the plugins. why should it.

That's a big one Derek. Let me restate it. That is huge!!
Your opinion is heavily biased against Logic for personal reasons, which might be very good reasons for all we know, I am not debating that.
Don't you think that distorts the way you perceive Logic, the plugs or anything that bears the Logic logo, making you see everything in absolutes such as Kill, Suck? (The same is true for people who do the opposite such as praising the app like it was God's gift to mankind)
Don't you think you are doing a disservice to the person who's trying to decide which program to buy, without at the very least, disclosing your personal agenda against it?
Don't you think he/she deserves to at least know where you are coming from so as to take your comments in a certain perspective?
Let me put it this way: If I posted in a thread suggesting to someone to purchase XYZ program because it's the greatest thing ever created, would you not be curious as to how I came to that conclusion? If you disagreed with it would you not challenge my suggestion or at least try to discover if I have any economic or personal interest in pushing that one app?
If I posted on the Nuendo forum claiming to have spent some time with it and found free stuff that kills some of the functions Nuendo is famous and generally praised for, would you not challenge me to back up my statements with facts? Would you not try to discover if I have any economic or personal interest in my agenda against it? Especially after some posts you realize that I don't really know Nuendo that well and may have not used it to its full capabilities? Would you not want to at least get some facts straight, especially the ones you are most knowledgeable about? Would the simple fact that you are trying to show me that I may have overlooked some functions or area of the program make you a Nuendo fanboy? Wouldn't I be doing a disservice to anyone out there researching whether or not Nuendo may be the right app for them, with my limited knowledge and heavy bias against it?
If you don't agree to at least this you will never agree with anyone on this thread.

sheesh, calm down. im stalking your sequencer! is that what you think? LOL. no, really, calm down a bit, ok? lets talk about
the plugins? oh, wait, you dont know them. er...

may i put some pitchshifting (downwards) and some snareroll samples below this statement? a little vibrato to make the voice tremble
accordingly might also add to the drama

now thats what you would like to have, right, that people who dont like logic (and can list reasons why they dont, but dont get me started)
are not allowed to comment? like, when somebody starts a thread asking whether he should get logic or something else, only the people who love logic should be allowed to comment? thats pretty funny, actually.

well, you know, id rather have an update in the audio editing area (and a healthy dose of bugfixing in the audio engine timing area,
getting sample resolution instead of tick resolution everywhere, sample precise PDC everywhere and more stuff like that) than some
hobby psychologic analysis about why i dont like logic. believe it or not, there are real life reasons to not like logic other
than psychologic disorder. and just so you know, i can bitch equally loud about stuff when it comes to my own sequencer (nuendo)
when i want it to have stuff i find desirable (that would currently be a list of mostly samplitude features im jealous of, and half a dozen
protools advantages). look me up on steinbergs nuendo forum.

for you anyway - we know that now

Whenever possible I tried to quote your entire paragraphs so as to not take words out of context or diminish/change the meaning of it. I would appreciate the same courtesy extended to me.
What I meant with that paragraph is that your views/opinion are so heavily distorted by your personal agenda against it that you are doing a disservice to anyone else. I even acknowledge that the same is true for zealots who praise the app without a sound reason for doing so.

you have to go as far as to my last post (that long one) to see thats not true. if somethings really exceptional
i mention that. if something is just average and im asked to compile a list of plugins that in my opinion kill that
plugin, well then so i do (now THATS not right either or what? . that doesnt mean the logic version sucks.
but when even such simple things as the goddamn stereo delay is portrayed as being unreplacable, then a reality check
is in order IMO.

Let me recap:
You made a bold statement about the established notion that freeware plugs can kill the Logic plugs.
I, and others, challenged that statement with a simple list of plugs.
Several post later we find that:
A) Some plugs cannot be replaced by freeware.
B) You could replace some plugs with samples or other compromises.
C) Even in the case where some free plugs can replace the Logic plugs, they are an alternative, not a killer.
C) You have a serious personal agenda against the app which motivates you in disliking it and talking about in a negative way. This certainly puts in perspective anything you may have to say about it.

Good luck,
Sal

[stag]

Does Logic have a half decent arpegiator? step sequencer? Drum maps?
I can't imagine life without drum maps, well this and Waldorf filters.

[spaceman]

Does Logic have a half decent arpegiator? step sequencer? Drum maps?
I can't imagine life without drum maps, well this and Waldorf filters.

it has a very versatile arpegiator.. unfortunately it has to run on it's own track routed to the instrument you want to use, which can annoy some people

it has drum maps yes, although it doesn't have a drum editor as such.. you need to 'make' one, which is a simple enough task and you only have to do it once (using mapped instruments and the hyper editor). From then on it's pretty darn cool.. the hyper editor is great

no step sequencer

[stag]

thanks.
i think i'm gonna get it, with 2x octa macintel on the side just for a laugh.

on it's own track?? wait!!! no MIDI experimentalism mayhem... hmmm i think i'll wait a little bit more

bye.

[beej]

Does Logic have a half decent arpegiator?.

Yep, and if you rig up multiple ones with delay units, map them to different controller ranges and on different channels going to different softsynths, it's *awesome*... It's like making your whole studio one improvising tool. Great fun. Touch tracks are also fun as well, where you can trigger, toggle, loop and transpose sequences assigned to keys on the fly.

step sequencer?

Not a self contained one as such, if you mean an arpeggiator-like step sequencer, but plenty of people have made them in the environment, it's not that hard. If you mean like a drum machine-like step sequencer, Yes, ultrabeat has one.

Drum maps?

Yeah you can have as many mapped instruments as you want, and name the individual drum notes. it can be useful to have a standard GM maps (which Logic can generate for you) but also custom ones with names of samples etc. These names show up in the event list and hyper editors and it works well.

[beej]

it has a very versatile arpegiator.. unfortunately it has to run on it's own track routed to the instrument you want to use, which can annoy some people

Nah, you can do all kinds of flexible routings in the environment. If you want it on your keyboard generated notes *before* the sequencer section, and thus affected whatever instrument you're using when it's on, it's trivial to do...

[stag]

thanks again.
so i can scare my neighbours cats with Logic too... great!!! Jobs did you felt a little plastic card hiting you in the head? that's my credit card, i hope you don't mind.

time for some beer... cooooool beer. wait a minute does logic freeze a six pack?

bye.

[derek]

Derek, you're full of shit.

and youre somewhat predictable :-)

All you've done in a thousand too many words is list a load of COMMERCIAL PLUGINS that don't even KILL the logic plugins, in a lot of cases they are arguably worse.

well, sorry to say that, but you guessed wrong. theyre all free except one /vsampler), just as i said.

you're full of shit mate and a 20 page post containing nothing but lunatic rambling isn't going to change the discussion in your favourite.

what do i care about "changing the discussion in my favourite". thats not a world i live in, that whole "win the discussion" thing is something you keep bringing up all the time. also, "win the discussion" compared to who, you? all you say is "youre full of shit! youre full of shit!" because i insulted your puppy, you quite obviously didnt read my post, hallucinate about me mentioning sonalksis, seem to think that everything from ohmforce costs money (frohmage is indeed from ohmforce, yes. and its free. ooooh surprise!) and present all these glorious findings of yours with a big gesture to me. ok, you win, dude :-)

All you had to do is say

all i "have" to do mate is to openly talk about my opinion. youll live. and who knows, maybe you just learned something, i.e. that kjaerhus has a huge collection of free plugins and ohmforces frohmage is free and stuff. go download it now, its cool stuff, and youre welcome :-)

[/quote]
so.. what's your next argument going to be? I swear to much? I have to many post so I obviously don't have time to make music? I'm not a pro? What's next? I can't wait for the next weak argument to get you out of it..[/quote]

what about "your whole post was somewhat obsolete because your wild guess that i only listed commercial plugins was wrong"? :-)

[beej]

time for some beer... cooooool beer. wait a minute does logic freeze a six pack?

Yeah, you need the "Refrigerator" object in the environment, but you have to create your virtual kitchen first. Double-click on the refrigerator to open it, and drop your six-pack object inside.

Make sure to leave Logic running though, because otherwise if you quit it, next time you load Logic your six-pack will be warm (unless you assign it to an arrange track and "freeze" it...)

[putte]

.. .. derek in full effect!

it probably doesn't add to the thread but i have the pleasure to say that derek is (to me) THE music man in the city i live in. and looking at derek as a human being i can only say .. oh, sorry, wrong emoticon, here comes the right one:

and by saying this i don't mean that he's right in all he says in this specific thread .. (i'm a logic user as well) .. its just that derek knows the shit he's talking about.

though, if you have the time i'd also like to see that list of freeware-plugins you mentioned ..
(not really interesting to me anyway, as i only make regular use of SpaceDesigner regarding the on-board plugins).

putte

[stag]

time for some beer... cooooool beer. wait a minute does logic freeze a six pack?

Yeah, you need the "Refrigerator" object in the environment, but you have to create your virtual kitchen first. Double-click on the refrigerator to open it, and drop your six-pack object inside.

Make sure to leave Logic running though, because otherwise if you quit it, next time you load Logic your six-pack will be warm (unless you assign it to an arrange track and "freeze" it...)

too much trouble, i guess i'll stick to tape deck to get the job done