KVR Audio

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:10 pm

Excellent - thanks for the link torhan

whyterrabyt beat me to it with the quote in full!

Cheers

christianmusicmaker · Post by **christianmusicmaker** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:36 pm

headquest wrote: You're too modest mate! You've owned or at least tried nearly all the sequencers out there haven't you?

Yes but that those days are well and truly over.

Thankfully choosing a video editor (Vegas 7 in my case) is a lot easier.

I guess that before Live came along, and especially Live 4 with MIDI, it just wasn't possible... but all that is changing...

Agreed I don't think it was possible come to think of it.

At present the cost of Ableton is creeping up, and because there is no obvious successful rival to it there is no reason for them to exercise restraint in their pricing.

As long as people still buy it they will likely continue the price rise. Perhaps Ableton have to raise their prices because the number of potential customers for stage usage, is far less than the number of people that might use it as a studio DAW. It is clearly a market they are here to stay in (studio use) but it is not a market they totally dominate. I think surprisingly Magix took that crown recently on software sold in the US and Europe over the last 12 months.

As we all know competition is very stiff when it comes to studio hosts. The Live DJ market has been Abletons for years. Maybe the apparent lack of interest in developing a 'Live on stage' rival product is because that market is just too narrow. Perhaps this is why Ableton have consistently added studio level features to Live since v4.

The number of potential users in the studio DAW market place I would guess is many times larger than those who already use Live on stage and potentially would use Live on stage.

Maybe this is why Cakewalk for instance have held back somewhat from developing P5 as much as Sonar. Project 5 was shipping around April last year since then clearly two versions of Sonar have been developed, so Cakewalks main priority it appears is definitely Sonar.

Now that Ableton have combined studio and stage use into one application I suspect Cakewalk will give P5 a much higher priority as Ableton have almost carved out a new type of host. One that can just as easily be used on stage as it can in the studio. No question Live 6 is that application now.

I think Cakewalk will likely have to create a parallel host that is almost as feature rich as Sonar to compete with Live. Even if it means splitting the current flagship position of Sonar with P5. I have read many posts on the P5 forum about people requiring clarification on which to choose...Sonar 5 or Project5, even though there is so much information available on Cakewalks site. Why the confusion? Because predictably there are already so many similarities between Sonar and P5. Of course they have differences, but the similarities are enough for potential customers to question which is best to invest in, from time to time on the Cakewalk forums.

Well...if that is the case now, and if Cakewalk take P5 to the level IMHO it has to be to compete with pretty much most of the other hosts out there then it will not take many features for it to be (for want of a better word) a parallel option to Sonar on an equal footing.

Features like...
Dual core support
32 bit file support
More sends
Better metering

I suspect many will find just these 4 features enough to use P5 instead of Sonar...Live and Podium already have these features so at the very least it will have to have them IMHO, but if Cakewalk do this they will create a two tier set up at the top of Cakewalks tree. Not sure if they want that, maybe they do or are not even slighty bothered either way. It is probably easier for Cakewalk to take P5 to where Live is (Studio and Stage usage) than to take Sonar to that level.

I somehow cannot see Sonar being marketed for Live Stage use in future as an alternative to other hosts that are reliable enough IMHO, to be used on stage like Live or even Podium. Project 5 however is a different matter and it may be Cakewalks main app in the not so distant future. Crazy speculation of course

but I really do not see Cakewalk developing Sonar for Live use instead of P5. Makes no sense. What makes Live so unique is the gapless engine *and* it's 'on stage' friendly features and its studio features combined into one package. P5 lacks the studio clout that Live has and is weaker for Stage use.

It will surely be far easier for Cakewalk to add the four studio features I mentioned at least, remove any gapping from P5 and then market this as a true option to Live for Studio and Live usage. Sonar surely will not head in that direction so maybe my speculation is not so crazy

As for the likely competition for on stage usage...
If the P5 v2 update comes around the end of Q12007, it will only be a few months away from competition in the shape of Live7. I am quite sure NI will take KORE much further and add host level midi and audio features to KORE. Maybe a KOREv.2 or 1.5 for Winter NAMM 2007.

Project 5 IMHO is not as feature rich for studio use IMHO as Live or even as rock solid for Live use either. I would put Podium feature wise ahead as well. So really at this point there is nothing to touch the combination that Live offers to those who want to perform on stage and produce with the same application in the studio IMHO.

Having said that...I think Podium could easily handle Live usage as well but I don't know if this is a direction the developer would want to take Podium in or if it would even be worth pursuing especially as there is probably not much of a return considering the effort required and likely meagre returns.

The host 'studio' market is a much wider and deeper customer base to aim for number wise, so it offers a much better chance of a product being sustainable commercially I think. The number of hosts available for studio usage compared to Live stage usage is quite very clearly in favour of studio usage. Perhaps this will or is currently changing.

Certainly the likely small returns from the Live DJ 'stage' market for Ableton I think explains the "studio + stage" focus for Live 4,5 and now v.6.

torhan · Post by **torhan** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:41 pm

I'm waiting for that ^^ post to come out on video

christianmusicmaker · Post by **christianmusicmaker** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:46 pm

torhan wrote:I'm waiting for that ^^ post to come out on video

Yes...I suppose that is an option but posting on KVR is cheaper to produce and market.

RTaylor · Post by **RTaylor** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:48 pm

headquest wrote:It is defintely my preference for music making. Why stop playback in any way if it can be avoided? Certainly there are so many other ways to get the job done but realtime usage is my no.1 preference as well.

They're 2 different programs that serve 2 different purposes and 2 different syles of music-making. Rather than see Sonar adopt Live's features, I'd like to see things like a common file format that would allow projects from either program to work in either program. I think that would be a lot more beneficial to the audio community as a whole.

RTaylor · Post by **RTaylor** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:50 pm

christianmusicmaker wrote:Yes but that those days are well and truly over. Thankfully choosing a video editor (Vegas 7 in my case) is a lot easier.

Vegas is better than Premiere or Avid or Canopus stuff?

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:09 pm

Vegas IS extremely adept at video editing... very simple and straightforward, yet powerful at the same time.

Beardedone · Post by **Beardedone** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:13 pm

Vegas + DVD is worth every penny! Sonar 6 .. I am not so sure about as yet.

RTaylor · Post by **RTaylor** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:53 pm

Jason Brian Merrill wrote:Vegas IS extremely adept at video editing... very simple and straightforward, yet powerful at the same time.

Like Premiere and Avid and Canopus.

Premiere has a long track record and has worked out most all of its bugs. It's about the most compatible program on the face of the planet. If you need compatibility with other Adobe programs, it's as good as it gets.

Avid has a huge upgrade path and lets you benefit from truly high end experience as well as being hugely capable in each version up to the level of the editors used by high end professionals in every area of the industry. You learn it once and your experience will travel.

Canopus has some of the highest quality solutions going...

Vegas?

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:58 pm

RTaylor wrote:
Jason Brian Merrill wrote:Vegas IS extremely adept at video editing... very simple and straightforward, yet powerful at the same time.
Like Premiere and Avid and Canopus.

I dont understand where you see i am implying i know ANYTHING about these other programs. Again, i am just mentioning my personal experience

from what i have *heard* however, premiere is a nightmare compared to vegas. and i cant imagine video editing getting much easier than in vegas.

But again, im just mentioning what i know.

christianmusicmaker · Post by **christianmusicmaker** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:09 pm

RTaylor wrote:
christianmusicmaker wrote:Yes but that those days are well and truly over. Thankfully choosing a video editor (Vegas 7 in my case) is a lot easier.
Vegas is better than Premiere or Avid or Canopus stuff?

Better? Not sure really but let me explain...

I have not used AVID's video products (costs are way beyond what I will pay) Canopus from the little I know of it, is a very powerful offering as well. Again I know too little about it frankly to compare.

I remember looking at Adobe Premier some time ago and I needed a nice FX package and DVD burning features to go with it. Premier+ Encore+ After Effects is *far* more expensive than Vegas+ DVD. Vegas is extremely powerful. I just needed something I could use for Music videos and editing my own personal material. Vegas is astonishingly easy to use.

I made my mind up to avoid any steep learning curve with Vegas and bought the Vegas6 + DVD seminar Sony DVD. I was well and truly shocked. This thing is just so easy to get into. There was a tutorial for instance that showed how to produce a professional DVD (which is also something I need) It was just too easy.

My experience however with Adobe products (I have the latest Adobe CS2 products..GoLiveCS2, PhotoshopCS2,IllusratorCS2, Image readyCS2, IndesignCS2 e.t.c) are anything but easy. I found Dreamweaver8 and Fireworks easier to use. Even Flash Pro 8 was not that difficult to get into.

Maybe AA2 is diffferent, cannot say as I have not used it but I think Headquest has, so he will know better than me.

Vegas provides me with ease of use + all the power I need and more in a top level Video editor. V.7 looks even better.

What you get in Vegas for the price and *how* you get work done is just so much better, more fun and cheaper than Adobe's video offerings IMHO.

HD support is nice to have as well in Vegas 6 as I have a HD cam. version 7 appears to extend this support further.

Adobe's Web products now that I am more familiar with them, are truly great when used together but they really could and should be far easier to use.

However I know too little of Canopus and Avid to compare with those. I know AVID's offering is priced way beyond a reasonable budget for my needs. Vegas is spot on. My upgrade to Vegas +DVD v.7 might cost £100 - £150.

I agree with Beardone and JBM, Vegas is the biz!

fandango · Post by **fandango** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:10 pm

Had to use Adobe Premiere at work to put together a video reel for a conference entry. I did not have a good time.

Jason Brian Merrill · Post by **Jason Brian Merrill** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:21 pm

RTaylor wrote:
Jason Brian Merrill wrote:Vegas IS extremely adept at video editing... very simple and straightforward, yet powerful at the same time.
Like Premiere and Avid and Canopus.

I dont understand where you see i am implying i know ANYTHING about these other programs. Again, i am just mentioning my personal experience

from what i have *heard* however, premiere is a nightmare compared to vegas. and i cant imagine video editing getting much easier than in vegas.

But again, im just mentioning what i know.

RTaylor · Post by **RTaylor** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:45 pm

Jason Brian Merrill wrote:
RTaylor wrote:
Jason Brian Merrill wrote:Vegas IS extremely adept at video editing... very simple and straightforward, yet powerful at the same time.
Like Premiere and Avid and Canopus.

I dont understand where you see i am implying i know ANYTHING about these other programs. Again, i am just mentioning my personal experience

from what i have *heard* however, premiere is a nightmare compared to vegas. and i cant imagine video editing getting much easier than in vegas.

But again, im just mentioning what i know.

Premiere pro isn't difficult at all. The demo's free for 30 days... you might try it.

You bought Vegas without shopping around?

RTaylor · Post by **RTaylor** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:51 pm

christianmusicmaker wrote:However I know too little of Canopus and Avid to compare with those. I know AVID's offering is priced way beyond a reasonable budget for my needs. Vegas is spot on. My upgrade to Vegas +DVD v.7 might cost £100 - £150.

I agree with Beardone and JBM, Vegas is the biz!

Liquid can be had for less than $500 and upgrades are reasonable. Canopus is pricey but easy to use and the quality is exceptional.

http://www.avid.com/products/liquid/

Sonar 6 information is available now.