Sonar 6 information is available now.

[whyterabbyt]

headqquest - would you mind describing what it is that's revolutionary about the Live6 take on Freeze. There's not enough detail in your post to work out what is new about it.

[christianmusicmaker]

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I had high hopes for P5V2 but don't see it really making it as a top tier host. There are some severe limitations such as limited audio inputs and routing, very basic audio editing, almost, painful audio loop editing and the whole "layering channels and tracks" with multi-timbral synths.

Agreed there are many more limitations to address. If Cakewalk do not add these key features and others I think Project 5 may never compete at the top level. I somehow doubt Cakewalk will let P5 wither. Or really it would be a waste of their development time to continue to support it. I think they will do something very big in P5...or...maybe they have already given up on it ever being a rival to Live6/7 for Stage + Studio use which I simply do not believe. but that is just my view

I could be wrong, especially considering the time it has taken to update P5. This suggests Cakewalk may very well not even be interested in competing with Ableton Live which would totally puzzle me. That would be a head scratcher for sure.

As a midi/synth workstation I think it's fine but its audio defficiencies and basic work-flow-thought-process limits its broader application. The groove matrix gives the impression that it is Live-like but it's not really.

Totally agree. Headquests addtional info on possible Ableton plans for the future show that P5 is not only far behind Live (which I did say in my earlier post) but as I also said earlier, Cakewalk will have to raise P5 to a parallel level of flagship status with Sonar for Cakewalk to have anything to compete with Ableton in the 'Studio and Stage' host arena, right now only one host exists in this area. Podium could be used here as well IMHO but does not have features that are dedicated for Live use or that are primarily focused for that market. The gapless engine could pull it off though.

I think judging by Headquests comments Ableton are just getting started. the P5v2 update for me would have to have a feature set that would almost justify it being a v.3 upgrade. A major overhaul is required. I guess those 4 features I mentioned would be just starting points.

[whyterabbyt]

I could be wrong, especially considering the time it has taken to update P5. This suggests Cakewalk may very well not even be interested in competing with Ableton Live which would totally puzzle me. That would be a head scratcher for sure.

I see P5 as a composition tool, not a live performance tool. I'd like to see P5 beefed up, but I dont know if competing in the exact same space as Live has any benefits for CW; filling a slightly different niche might.

[christianmusicmaker]

I see P5 as a composition tool, not a live performance tool.

I'd like to see P5 beefed up, but I dont know if competing in the exact same space as Live has any benefits for CW; filling a slightly different niche might.

Possibly yes. I guess only Cakewalk really know what they have planned for P5. My wild speculations are just that at the moment. But I think Cakewalk have already given us a strong indication as to where they really want to aim P5v.2 as a product now and maybe in future with this comment on the P5v.2 product page on Cakewalks new website...

"Blur the boundary between studio and stage"

It's the P5v.2 studio and stage focus and the obvious similarity to Live that makes me think Cakewalk at least with P5v.2 if not 2.5/3?, have Studio and Stage or composition and Live performance usage in mind.

The P5v.2 Frankfurt Messe demo video was IMHO, a definite message to the Live performers out there to explore the compositional as well as Live performance qualities of P5v.2.

Cakewalks Brandon Ryan demonstrated in that 15+ minute video that P5v.2 can indeed "Blur the boundary between studio and stage" this is why I think Cakewalk will develop this Stage and Studio use further.

Of course Cakewalk might actually shift P5's focus to composition instead of Live performance for the next P5 update. Maybe this is better for Cakewalk as Live has dominated the Live performance software host arena it appears, for some time now.

[dgkenney]

I see P5 as a composition tool, not a live performance tool. I'd like to see P5 beefed up, but I dont know if competing in the exact same space as Live has any benefits for CW; filling a slightly different niche might.

Although a Live lover I have to give P5V2 props for 2 things over Live

1 - The arpegiator in P5V2 borders on brilliant (although it would be ++good if it was downstream of the track/layer flow)

2- "free" Dimension is better than "free" Simpler We will have to see re: additional cost Sampler (in V6) ( and perhaps Sompler (in V7) in Sumpler (in V8 ) )

Dan

[fandango]

1 - The arpegiator in P5V2 borders on brilliant (although it would be ++good if it was downstream of the track/layer flow)

Indeed! And many question why we can't have an arp like this in Sonar... or at least an MFX arp that actually works properly.

[fgimian]

You cannot split midi notes and you cannot mute them. Something, I use very much while working with midi.
Another thing: sonar doesn't show you different controller lanes for different midi controller, everything is shown in a single lane and this is just a mess after working on more than two different controllers. And you have to select the controler on which you want to work before you can edit it.
In cubase, you just open a new controller lane and work on the controllers you want. Fast and easy. You can even make presets and call the instantly.
I like sonar very much, but I cannot understand, why it is for cakewalk such a rocket science to improve midi and bring it to a level where cubase or logic is. I mean, they started as a midi sequencer. Is it really so difficult to put a split and a mute tool in the piano roll?

I must say thank you for bringing this to my attention. I almost didn't believe it when reading it so I downloaded the demo and it's all true, Sonar can not display more than one controller at a time in the piano roll ... as far as I could see, it couldn't even display the notes and 1 controller, just 1 thing at a time in the piano roll. This alone would keep me with Cubase I'm afraid, it's such an essential feature, I'm very very surprised that it hasn't been in Sonar since 1.0.

Thanks for the info
Fots

[wrench45us]

I see P5 as a composition tool, not a live performance tool. I'd like to see P5 beefed up, but I dont know if competing in the exact same space as Live has any benefits for CW; filling a slightly different niche might.

I agree with rabbyt on this one. unfortunately it looks as if CW in their last set of marketing tag lines and focus did try to take Live on. And almost immediately Live users pointed out the major performance deficiency in Groove Matrix
-- having to stop to load up a live recording
-- not having a multiple output to preview as well as output

nonetheless Groove Matrix can serve as a great composition tool
and somewhat limited live performance tool. What I really have never understood is why P5 doesn't have 'advanced' audio editing/slicing capabilities. It's obviously targeted as a 'pattern based' composition host, well then it should have a a tool set for dealing with audio 'loops'. It wasn't until v 2.5 that loops could be 'acidized'.
And as I've mentioned before to make up for this deficiency, I've added Live Slice to my tool set and quite honestly I can't see CW adding a toolset this rich in audio slicing/editing/manipulation and playback even in their next big update.
Fortunately for me, I mostly use and appreciate greatly the 'advanced' midi pattern and track editing and automation in P5.
I think the best thing CW could do would be to make P5 available as a vst 'instrument' as FLStudio does. Then Rewire headaches would be over and a lot of users might be able to take advantage of P5's strengths within their host of choice, including Sonar or Live.

Re: freeze vbs. bounce to track
(and i can't honestly say I understand headquest's description of 'flatten')
But I do know in P5 Freeze freezes the track as is. That track can't be changed. Bounce to Track -- renders to audio the current track to a new audio track and keeps the existing midi based track active.
At 1st I didn't see the need for 2 different methods, but as it was explained to me and as I've come to see it's benefits, with bounce to track you then have a lot of open options on continuing to modify/manipulate that 'original' midi track. Also with some judicious use of track markers I can 'bounce to track' just a portion of the whole track to make a loop or render some audio as a base for a Reaktor grain machine or Live Slice slice/dice/mangling.
I suspect Live's 'flatten' may again reveal their focus on real-time live performance vs. providing open-ended options for studio composition/arrangement. But I can't say for sure.

[headquest]

Re: freeze vbs. bounce to track
(and i can't honestly say I understand headquest's description of 'flatten')

It's coming very shortly! I just got in and read through the latest posts - I will reply to whytterabbyt with a description next!
Cheers

[christianmusicmaker]

I think the best thing CW could do would be to make P5 available as a vst 'instrument' as FLStudio does. Then Rewire headaches would be over and a lot of users might be able to take advantage of P5's strengths within their host of choice, including Sonar or Live.

I could not agree more wrench! I amazed this has not happened already. This is one of the reasons why FL studio is so popular.

[dgkenney]

I think the best thing CW could do would be to make P5 available as a vst 'instrument' as FLStudio does. Then Rewire headaches would be over and a lot of users might be able to take advantage of P5's strengths within their host of choice, including Sonar or Live.

I could not agree more wrench! I amazed this has not happened already. This is one of the reasons why FL studio is so popular.

Now that would be exciting for me! The ability to use P5V2's arpegiator inside of Live would be great not to mention some of the DX and DXis of Cakewalk.

Dan

[mumpcake]

What I really have never understood is why P5 doesn't have 'advanced' audio editing/slicing capabilities. It's obviously targeted as a 'pattern based' composition host, well then it should have a a tool set for dealing with audio 'loops'. It wasn't until v 2.5 that loops could be 'acidized'.

2.5?

As far as acidization, P5 only forces a clip to loop to audio. It doesn't have the slicing functionality that Sonar has.

Also I find it odd that P5 has no way of playing REX files (that functionality being added to Dimension Pro, not the included Dimension) while Sonar 5 included the RXP player to handle that format.

[wrench45us]

by 'acidized' I mean the ability to save an audio clip in a way that can then match tempo
CW calls these Groove Clips
the term and method was 'borrowed' from Sonar, unfortunately they didn't 'borrow' all the audio manipulation from Sonar -- though you can slice a bit and control volume, pan and (I think) pitch (?) on the slices
you can't rearrange slices
(and even if they borrrowed the whole of it, it wouldn't touch the features available in Live Slice -- so I'm satisfied with that solution)
being more a pollyanna/optimist than a conspiracist (they're holding back their best features for their flagship), I always figured they just ran out of time and resources. But most have reached other conclusions.

[headquest]

headqquest - would you mind describing what it is that's revolutionary about the Live6 take on Freeze. There's not enough detail in your post to work out what is new about it.

Sure, I'll give it my best shot!

For Live 6 Ableton basically rethought the whole concept of freeze from the ground up. They stated on their beta forum during the Live 5 testing phase last year that the freeze in Live 5 was a temporary one while they configured something more powerful, and here it is!

With an emphasis on how it's innovative, I will try to walk you thorough what it does and how.

First you need to understand that the "Deep Freeze" feature in Live 6 combines two common tasks which in Sonar and other hosts are generally kept separate: "Freeze" and "Bounce to Track". Ableton call this second task "Flatten", although jargon is not important.

These two processes are incremental stages - i.e. a MIDI track (or audio track with effects that you may wish to freeze) can first be "frozen", and subsequently "flattened". So here's how "Deep Freeze" works:

The first Freeze stage basically freezes VST synths and effects. To use freeze, you can simply right click over a track in either Session or Arrangement View, and select "Freeze Track" from the context menu.

The significant shift here is that while you still need to freeze a whole track in Live 6, it is essentially the clips that are frozen, giving a number of key benefits. As a result they can be moved around within the Arrangement timeline, unlike in Live 5. Other new benefits for Live users are that in Live 6, you can draw in or record fresh automation curves in the Arrangement. Significantly you can also now launch frozen clips in the Session View in real time, with gapless audio, and record them into the Arrangement timeline without having to then refreeze them. This is a big time saver! As before of course you can still have full control of all mixer features after a track is frozen.

The second freeze stage, "Flatten", is as stated basically equivalent to Sonar's "Bounce to Track" command. It is a render in place feature. To use flatten, right click over a frozen track and select Flatten from the context menu.

Flatten does the following:
* All clips with the track's Session and the full Arrangement are rendered as 32-bit audio files.
* MIDI files, effects, VST /AU synths and audio effects for the flattened track are all removed from the project
* MIDI/Audio hybrid tracks are replaced by standard audio tracks, obviously with mixer setting copied across.
* Flattened clips/loops are double-length, i.e. two copies of the clip. This is to ensure that effect tails are correct, and overcomes the common problem of loops sounding unnatural as a result of effects processes. Because of this, the flattened audio is of final render quality.
* Flattened audio in Arrangments includes effects tails after clips as sliced clips themselves, providing all that's need to make it easier to rearrange material in the arrangement later on.

While Sonar obviously has much (but not all) of this functionality, it is disparate because the freeze and bounce/render functions are entirely separated. I would say that Live 6's Deep Freeze is "revolutionary" because it is the first Freeze feature I have seen which properly and fully does what Freeze ultimately sets out to do. The ergonomics and ease of use are also far better than what Sonar and others currently offer.

I hope this helps to explain it, but ultimately it has to be tried in order for its power, flexibility and fluent ease of use to be entirely apparent. It will be hard to live without this excellent implementation though - a great addition to Live 6.

Cheers.

[jamester]

Excellent discussion, and great info Headquest!

As a Sonar user who has also used P5 and is now using Live, I have to say that so far it is really the combination of Sonar + P5/Live that makes for the one-two knockout punch. I'm also very much a "wish I could just limit it to one" kind of guy, but the fact is different programs play to different strengths and such. There's no one-size-fits-all that I can find...

I'm loving Live, but Sonar isn't threatened. At least not yet! Actually, this Fall's going to be pretty crazy with Sonar 6, Live 6 and the new P5 update. Let the games begin! =)