Sonar 6 information is available now.

[torhan]

Jamester -- who let you out of the "Other Place" ?!?!

[wrench45us]

The significant shift here is that while you still need to freeze a whole track in Live 6, it is essentially the clips that are frozen, giving a number of key benefits. As a result they can be moved around within the Arrangement timeline, unlike in Live 5. Other new benefits for Live users are that in Live 6, you can draw in or record fresh automation curves in the Arrangement. Significantly you can also now launch frozen clips in the Session View in real time, with gapless audio, and record them into the Arrangement timeline without having to then refreeze them.

so headquest, I want to understand this
when Live 6 freezes a track, the frozen clips from that freeze can be moved about and re-automated -- so portions of that frozen track are selectable based on the initial midi pattern length
and if that's so, how on earth do they get the effects tails of that clip to go along with that clip when it's moved?
maybe that's asking too much
it's a great concept though
certainly would save me a lot of time since as I mentioned I do the bounce to track with track markers to essentially render portions of the track to reusable audio clips

the biggest difference (aside from this useful feature, if I understand it right) is that once the full flatten is chosen in Live 6, all origons of that track are gone. CW it's still there and if you don't really want it on playback, but want to keep it around for the sake of revision, you can bypass the whole track. And I do that quite a bit.

i agree with jamester
great discussion
good feature description

[jamester]

Jamester -- who let you out of the "Other Place" ?!?!

I get an hour lunch break!

[headquest]

so headquest, I want to understand this
when Live 6 freezes a track, the frozen clips from that freeze can be moved about and re-automated -- so portions of that frozen track are selectable based on the initial midi pattern length

All that is possible yes. You can treat frozen clips exactly like an ordinary audio clip.

and if that's so, how on earth do they get the effects tails of that clip to go along with that clip when it's moved?

First, if there is already an Arrangement when you freeze, the effect tail is indicated with a dotted line on the timeline. When you flatten a clip, the area of that dotted line - i.e. the effect tail - is presented as a seperate sliced audio clip, which you can move around or copy however you wish to add to the end of loops/sections. It allows a lot of flexibility.

If you crop a frozen clip (which is also now possible) you would have to exercise the same judgement as if it were an audio clip of course, because that is what it essentially is.

it's a great concept though
certainly would save me a lot of time since as I mentioned I do the bounce to track with track markers to essentially render portions of the track to reusable audio clips

Yes, it's going to save you lots of time then

the biggest difference (aside from this useful feature, if I understand it right) is that once the full flatten is chosen in Live 6, all origons of that track are gone. CW it's still there and if you don't really want it on playback, but want to keep it around for the sake of revision, you can bypass the whole track. And I do that quite a bit.

Same here. In fact Live 6's "Freeze" is exactly as you say for Sonar - stuff is unloaded from use, but still there if later required. The track functions as an audio track, with the VSTs offloaded. For everything you are saying you would do that using Live 6's "Freeze", and not "Flatten".

"Flatten" takes this further and is like Sonar's "Bounce to Track" - so yes, everything then disappears (although until you next save it is available via "Undo" history).

Some reasons why you might want to take this extra step and completely "Flatten" the track into a straight audio take:

* One thing you gain would be the new global audio quantise (for want of a better description)... Bascially you can now select a track within a full multitrack Arrangment, and with a single click designate it as "MASTER" and all other audio is locked to any tempo changes or groove elements.

* Another reason to flatten might be if you wished to reload the audio render into one of Ableton's Sampler/Simpler/Impulse instruments, or a third party beatsliver, etc.

* Another reason again would be to do some destructive audio editing to the file using a program like SoundForge, Audition, Peak or Wavelab.

* You might simply want to play with the audio using Live's warp markers, swing grooves, etc.

I hope that all helps to clarify it further. The funny thing with Live 6's freeze - like so many Ableton features - it's very hard to explain them in words, and yet incredibly easy to find creative uses in practice! The demo should be available by the end of the month, and the beta process is gradually being opened out now, so I recommend taking Live 6 for a spin and trying out these freeze functions once you get the chance. I hope the stuff I have shared will help you get started with some ideas!

Cheers.

[Jed]

Jamester and Headquest

Like you guys and heaps of others I run Sonar, P5 and Live. For me the ultimate would be P5 as a VSTi and Live being able to run vsti's when rewired as a slave.

There ae plenty of times particularly when composing drums/perc for my Sonar tracks, that I wish I could just fire up Live in rewire, and use BFD or maybe a bass synth vsti using Lives great compositional tricks.

I dont understand why Ableton havent done this for Live when P5 and FLS can. Surely it would increase their user base substantially?

Cheers
Jed

[dgkenney]

For me the ultimate would be P5 as a VSTi and Live being able to run vsti's when rewired as a slave.

Jed

Exactly!


Dan

[MojoChopper]

So has Live 6 sorted the freezing of multi-output vst's that Live 5 couldn't handle?

Mojo Chopper

[headquest]

There ae plenty of times particularly when composing drums/perc for my Sonar tracks, that I wish I could just fire up Live in rewire, and use BFD or maybe a bass synth vsti using Lives great compositional tricks.

I dont understand why Ableton havent done this for Live when P5 and FLS can. Surely it would increase their user base substantially?

Cheers
Jed

Of the many rewire applications I have worked with and/or tested I would say that Live is the BEST rewire host... and the WORST rewire slave.

Having said that the scenario you outline begs the question - why not sequence/compose directly using BFD/etc within Sonar? ... You seem to be suggesting that you prefer Live as a composing / MIDI sequencing environment? If so, why not start off composition/sequencing projects in Live instead of Sonar? Do you even need Sonar at this point?

I think these questions go directly to the heart of the issues we are discussing. WHen push comes to shove, which of the 2 (or 3 including P5) is *for you* the most creative and complete environment to work in?

Note - I'm not saying that to let Ableton off the hook! I agree that they should sort out the Reiwre slave issue asap. I doubt your assessment that it would "increase ... substantially" their user base though, because I don't imagine that this one thing is the real deal-breaker for many prospective Live users.

Two forthcoming improvements for those of us who have both Sonar and Live:

1. Live 6 receives incoming MIDI from a Rewire host - which means the Ableton instruments can now be sequenced directly from within Sonar. Great for those of us who forked out for Operator, and perhaps another reaswon to invest in the Ableton Sampler instrument (given that Cakewalk no longer seem willing to bundle a sampler with Sonar these days, which is a curious and significant feature omission in Sonar at this point.... )

2. Live 6 will now export "All Tracks" from a project, rather than just the mixdown. So it will be easy to compose in Ableton, render "all tracks", and then mix them in Sonar if this is your preference.

[headquest]

So has Live 6 sorted the freezing of multi-output vst's that Live 5 couldn't handle?

Mojo Chopper

Sorry - I have none so I can't check for you (Reason 3 is my main software instrument/sampler, plus bundled stuff).

Somebody else? (or ask on the Abes forum?)

[RTaylor]

Live 6's key new features include multicore support, video, really good level metering, etc - all things Sonar already has ...

With the exception of video... probably essential and hardly bloat. Unless Live can come up with something similar for video to what they did for audio... that doesn't really interest me. My editor does what I need there.

...while Sonar 6's key new features are things Live already has - good MIDI controller support for live playing of VSTs, native VST hosting, and Elastic Audio.

So in a way if I update both I am gaining nothing - just overlap. Which is strange and a bit disconcerting!

Not bloat either... Personally, I think the implementation of vst in my version {3} is just fine.

It's hard to define much of that as bloat... I do see Sonar as more of a compositional tool and Live as something for assembling audio and mixes. It's a little difficult to say where the one ends and the other begins though.

[headquest]

With the exception of video... probably essential and hardly bloat. Unless Live can come up with something similar for video to what they did for audio... that doesn't really interest me. My editor does what I need there.

Live is very popular with movie composers such as Hans Zimmer, etc - for obvious reasons. Adding simple quicktime support was a must-have for Live 6, and it apparently took virtually zero development time . If you don't use it, you wouldn't even know it was there. Having said that, I don;t do video at all, but I did have a play with some video in Live 6, moving warp markers, etc, and it was a lot of fun!

Now they have added it though, I think they will be under preassure to enhance video in Live 7. It would not suprise me to see them go the full VJ route as processor power grows to allow that, but this is pure speculation, not based on specific comments I have picked up.

I do see Sonar as more of a compositional tool and Live as something for assembling audio and final mixes. It's a little difficult to say where the one ends and the other begins though.

That's really interesting because I think a lot of people equally see it the exact other way round - Live for composing, Sonar for mixing/production. I think that shows actually how close they have become in many core areas.

[RTaylor]

With the exception of video... probably essential and hardly bloat. Unless Live can come up with something similar for video to what they did for audio... that doesn't really interest me. My editor does what I need there.

Live is very popular with movie composers such as Hans Zimmer, etc - for obvious reasons. Adding simple quicktime support was a must-have for Live 6, and it apparently took virtually zero development time . If you don't use it, you wouldn't even know it was there. Having said that, I don;t do video at all, but I did have a play with some video in Live 6, moving warp markers, etc, and it was a lot of fun!

A monitor does strike me as pretty essential given the need to see what you're doing when matching audio to video.

I've not used the demo yet... Live 6 does realtime stretching and so on?

Now they have added it though, I think they will be under preassure to enhance video in Live 7. It would not suprise me to see them go the full VJ route as processor power grows to allow that, but this is pure speculation, not based on specific comments I have picked up.

I'm not at all interested in vj stuff. Something I could use seriously might be nice. If they could simply add video as another track on the timeline and make it as capable as audio... maybe come up with video vst or something... and... keep it light and fast... that would interest me. Flash integration would be nice.

Other programs are able to do this with present processor power...

I do see Sonar as more of a compositional tool and Live as something for assembling audio and final mixes. It's a little difficult to say where the one ends and the other begins though.

That's really interesting because I think a lot of people equally see it the exact other way round - Live for composing, Sonar for mixing/production. I think that shows actually how close they have become in many core areas.

I don't use samples or loops other than my own.

[wrench45us]

If you crop a frozen clip (which is also now possible) you would have to exercise the same judgement as if it were an audio clip of course, because that is what it essentially is.

I was hoping the frozen audi would deconstruct based on the the 'native' original midi clip boundaries
(would that be cool or what)
it doesn't sound like it's quite there yet, but it certainly sounds close if 'flatten' has independent 'tails' -- if I read that right

it sounds as if freeze renders the entire track to audio as one big audio wave -- that can then be edited as usual
but the distinctions with how CW renders vs. Ableton is really interesting to me.
a lot of features i can't claim to be all that interested in, but having an older computer, I'm very interested in the rendering to audio as a cpu saver and opportunity to fool in differnt ways with the raw material
headquest
thanks for taking the time to go into detail

[headquest]

Hi again!

I've not used the demo yet...

No, it's not yet available - still beta testing with a closed group at this point.

The release and demo should be available by the end of this month though.

Live 6 does realtime stretching and so on?

Yes. Regarding video, the movie plays in a quicktime screen, while the aduio appears as an audio track on the timeline. You can use warp markers to stretch it in real time, etc.

Other programs are able to do this with present processor power...

True of course, but I don't think Ableton would want to distract power away from real time audio processing quite yet... but personally I can see it coming later.

I don't use samples or loops other than my own.

I only use my own loops, but I use samples in terms of one-shots and sampled instruments.

[headquest]

I was hoping the frozen audi would deconstruct based on the the 'native' original midi clip boundaries
(would that be cool or what)
it doesn't sound like it's quite there yet, but it certainly sounds close if 'flatten' has independent 'tails' -- if I read that right

Yes, you read that right. But I'm not sure what you mean by the first part - can you explain?

it sounds as if freeze renders the entire track to audio as one big audio wave -- that can then be edited as usual
but the distinctions with how CW renders vs. Ableton is really interesting to me.

No - both freeze and flatten maintain the clip structure of the original material, both in the Session and Arrangment views. So for example, all loop points and repetitions from the original MIDI clips are maintained by the newly created audio clips, including in the Arrangement view. This is all part of how radical the new freeze feature really is...

...sorry I didn't even remember to mention that part clearly before!

a lot of features i can't claim to be all that interested in, but having an older computer, I'm very interested in the rendering to audio as a cpu saver and opportunity to fool in differnt ways with the raw material
headquest
thanks for taking the time to go into detail

No worries at all