SAWStudio?

[koolkeys]

Grymm, my host is better then your host!


Oh, wait, we use the same host. Whoops! So we are both pros!

Brent

[Bill OC]

Hark! Did I just hear my name?

Actually, grymmjack, I agree with *everything* you just said.
(It could happen. )

Anyway, I've retired from the SAWStudio apologist biz. Each to their own, no skin off my back, bigger fish to fry...better analogies to find.

Edit: Whoops, not analogies--*metaphors*. (I must be slipping.)

[grymmjack]

Real-time live sound in software, anybody? Beuller?

Can you mix, eq, compress and do effects for a live show with T2?

Cubase?

Logic?

reaper?

Sonar?

EXT?

Just wondering!

yes of course. are you kidding? all of the above could do it. would i trust them all equally? probably not. if t2 was setup to record a live gig with all of the project bits setup before hand, yes. same with cubase. however, ableton live i'd trust even from start | programs | ableton | live. i'd trust t2 over any others - it's confidence recording just rocks my socks. but t2 would pop and click and stop if you inserted filters (what t2 calls plugs) or did anything besides let it record

the gapless stuff is obviously your point. while you do have a point for live performance stuff, and if saw is gapless, then great! but ableton live is 1/2 the price and worlds more 'in touch' with the kind of way i work with a bit of software.

[grymmjack]

There's another interesting bit about SAW being able to automagically stretch and cross-fade two butt-spliced bits of audio, as well as the ability to 'hot-swap' effects while something is playing. Kinda neat.

T2 can do the same thing, with one key, as long as the filters are already inserted, it is gapless as well.

setup the filters so that one is enabled, and one is disabled, then select both the plugs while holding control and left clicking, then hit 'f'. t2 will toggle the 'enabled' states of the filters without any glitches and full PDC support on the fly.

of course doing something like this with a convolution plug that has large PDC may not be so gapless.

you can crossfade automatically in t2 as well i think, and if it's not automatic it's simply a matter of grabbing a little 'teat' and sliding her over a bit, which takes say 1 or 2 seconds

edit: forgot to mention the filter compare trick was one of many things i learned on IIRs T2 swa video (www.swavideo.com)

[skipkent]

Koolkeys,

I'm not trying to prove anything, but rather hoping others can prove/disprove something for me.

A big selling point for many SAW users appears to be the fact that they can do away with a hardware console entirely, in as well as out of the studio. Presumably they do tracking, monitoring, mixing and whatall in real time using SAW. Out of the box they can do this at very low latency with a quality EQ, compression, gating/whatever on every channel. To a home user like me who only records one or two tracks at a time this doesn't mean much, and T2 functions perfectly, letting me happily record and monitor with effects whatever it is I am playing.

Can T2 (or any other app) do this with 8 or 20 or more tracks of audio coming in at once, with EQ, compression, FX and gating on each track? I honestly don't know, but tend to think it would tax any host, but I may be totally wrong on that.

I have always been intrigued by the idea of doing live sound as well with nothing but an input device, a laptop and some sort of amplification/monitoring setup. Being able to add/drop/tweak fx in realtime while a band was playing would be nice too.

It could well be that all modern hosts are fully capable of this with no real price in latency and I'm just not aware of it.

I'm basically pointing out bits of the SAW advertising that attract my interest, and hoping that others can support or deny those as points of interest.

Thanks,

-skent

[grymmjack]

Jason, actually the Reaper exe is 1.4 megs now.

Brent

the setup.exe is 1.4 megs -- but the actual program exe is 1.11 megs

pretty incredible isn't it? of course lots of the stuff for both saw and reaper are external library dependencies and such i bet. the fact that they are runnning on 'windows' makes that pretty much a given i'd think.

can you put reaper.exe onto a floppy and without installing it, just run it right from the floppy? that'd be something! is reaper portable like that? it'd be great..

[koolkeys]

I wasn't criticizing your post, just so you know. I just didn't know exactly what you were trying to find.

Personally, I run full projects using T2. I never have a problem. Sometimes a freeze is necessary when I start adding reverb and compressors in. But that would be the case with ANY host. You can only run so much before software hits the limit. Whether T2 or SAW can do more, I don't know. I haven't really done a comparison. I don't know that it would be totally possible to prove or disprove it, based on which effects you were using, and other things.

But with T2, if I can just freeze, that's all I need when I hit the limit. I usually don't have to use it, because I get pretty large in my projects sometimes and it still runs fine.

It's usually when I have many disk streaming VSTi's running with a couple gigs of samples loaded, that I have to freeze something. With just the effects and audio, almost never.

Brent

[grymmjack]

Hark! Did I just hear my name?

Actually, grymmjack, I agree with *everything* you just said.
(It could happen. )

Anyway, I've retired from the SAWStudio apologist biz. Each to their own, no skin off my back, bigger fish to fry...better analogies to find.

Edit: Whoops, not analogies--*metaphors*. (I must be slipping.)

whats up bill? yeah and if it matters my man, your approach was more persuasive (even if that wasn't the goal it inevitably makes people atleast see what the fuss is about) to me than someone brow beating me for not agreeing.

[koolkeys]

Grymm, I have run Reaper from my flash drive. It's fully capable. But I also run EXT, which is half the size. Again, it boggles my mind how it's done.

Brent

[kenn]

I'm a pro. I use Tracktion and EXT. I'm not a kid. My life and career is music.

Great! (You have no idea how much i envy those of you who can make a living in music.)

So, being a professional, does that now entitle you to pass judgement on every aspect of the audio industry? Are you doing 20 hours of cartoon voiceover recording/editing a week? Do you do radio commercials every other day? Do you lock to picture and do post audio for several TV shows? Are you doing tracks for Vegas live shows? How many guest engineers use your studio?

(I'm not saying _I_ currently do these. I used to support these guys. And no, not for SAW)

In other words, how does being a self-recording musician, even a pro one who does other recording too, equip you to pass final judgement on the tools intended for people in a different part of the industry than you? To imply they're fools for investing $2k in a system that's been around for 11+ years?

But if you think because you use SAW that you are somehow elite compared to most here at KVR, you are sadly mistaken. You are no better, and your host is no better. It's good for you, but calling others children or anything else is just stupid.

I agree that many people who bash it do so on screenshots and price. But the attitude given in return is no better.

I agree. I'm not elite. But I'm different. And you should also agree that just because you have experience with a part of the pro audio world, you don't necessarily know it all.

If you (everyone this applies to) don't like SAW, and you state (over and over) that everyone has a right to an opinion, then why bother publically bashing something that you possibly don't completely understand, when you should know it's inflammatory?

I believe I know why. it's the "I can do with $$ what [insert despised succesful act or producer] think they can only do with $$$$" game. I play it too... with my at-home system, where I love seeing how much i can do, for how little.

"attitude given in return" (emphasis on return)

The "age" cracks - yes they were over the top and possibly unfair. I (and SAW users in general) took some shots, too. If anyone feels like starting off the apologies, I'll consider graciously accepting them, and maybe join in. or not.

grymmjack, you sagely said "It's such a waste of time". Couldn't agree more, but I didn't start the bun throwing.

[grymmjack]

Grymm, I have run Reaper from my flash drive. It's fully capable. But I also run EXT, which is half the size. Again, it boggles my mind how it's done.

Brent

nice, only the .exe is needed then brent?

(or .exe + massiva.key for the ext)?

[Jason Brian Merrill]

Jason, actually the Reaper exe is 1.4 megs now.

Brent

the setup.exe is 1.4 megs -- but the actual program exe is 1.11 megs

pretty incredible isn't it? of course lots of the stuff for both saw and reaper are external library dependencies and such i bet. the fact that they are runnning on 'windows' makes that pretty much a given i'd think.

can you put reaper.exe onto a floppy and without installing it, just run it right from the floppy? that'd be something! is reaper portable like that? it'd be great..

If you delete everything except reaper.exe and plugins/reaper explorer, reaper midi and reaper wave, you can get basic functionality without installation for 1.33 mb.

of course, this takes away mp3, wavpack, ogg, jesusonic fx, and time stretching (but its only 80 kb if you want to add timestretching).

pretty cool

and of course, you never need the registration handy cause its toally uncrippled

[grymmjack]

grymmjack, you sagely said "It's such a waste of time". Couldn't agree more, but I didn't start the bun throwing.

he started it!

he was looking at me funny!

you flinged a booger at me first! then you changed the channel from cartoons!

well *I* like he-man better than smurfs!!!

smurfs suck!

*picks nose and flings another booger*

repeat ad nauseum

im going to bed.

[Improv]

don't forget bill. he's the coolest of the three.

Who be Bill, grym?

Bill OC

Still don't know who he is-thought you meant someone in this thread. Carry on!

[skipkent]

Koolkeys,

Thanks for the response. One piece on the SAW site that really intrigued me was this:

http://www.sawstudio.com/SAWStudio/LiveInput.htm

They don't seem to have any hestitancy in giving the very strong impression that their software can handle up to 72 tracks of live input with eq/comp/etc on every channel.

Can it or can't it, I don't know, but if it CAN, I think there might be much more to that application than meets the eye. I think that sort of capability would be tremendously valuable to someone who needed that sort of throughput on a regular basis, and I also tend to think that that sort of person wouldn't mind the less than gorgeous gui or the price tag.

Just a thought.

Interesting updates here, too:

http://www.rmllabs.com/OnTheDrawingBoard.htm

Also try searching on prorec.com. Folks there have raised all the issues we have and more. Lots of interesting reading. One bit about a guy in 2001 who recorded 48 tracks live into a PIII with no hitches or glitches.

My hunch is that those who say this software is 'aimed at old-timers who don't know what they're buying' are, in fact, quite uninformed themselves.

My hunch is that this is an extremely carefully and thoughtfully engineered piece of software that is worth every penny to those in recording/performance situation in which there is very little room for ambiguity or futzing around, IE, big $$$ live recording, theatre sound and lighting and so on.

Maybe the engineers who swear by this program aren't stupid. Maybe they're WAY too busy working and making money to really care if Cubase has beat-slicing or Logic has a nifty drum machine.

The more I read about it and play with the demo, the more convinced I am that someday I may well invest in this myself.

Just my opinion!