When will Reason 4 come out?

[headquest]

Do you have a link for that drez?

The Link.

Its at the bottom where Marcus is talking about multi-core. Makes me think it will be awhile, as it reads (to me) that he hasn't cracked that nut yet.

Thanks drez

[fgimian]

Because of too long development.

I sort of understand this. I just sold Reason because I have given up on it. I loved using it, it introduced me to a world where computers could indeed let me make music without pissing me off.

But slowly the need for better sounds and to incorporate audio seemlessly into my work made me look elsewhere. I chose Live, but I could have probably gone to eXT if I hadn't been so hung up on rewire.

The key weaknesses in Reason for me were:

Lack of tempo automation.

Noticeable aliasing on the synths, although rendering at higher sample rates helped.

No real time audio file player.

No built in REX file conversion. DrREX could have been the front end for this.

I could have probably done without VST hosting if the synths sounded better.

But I have moved on and I don't regret it.

I must admit that I completely agree with every point you have made. I have been a huge Reason fan ... until I recently grabbed Synth1 and produced a few tracks using it instead of Subtractor ... I then wondered why the quality of my music had suddenly been raised about 100 times. Now, after months of using Synth1, I open Reason and absolutely cringe at the sound of Subtractor.

For me, Reason is my sampler and drum machine. It does that stuff really well, and Reason Drum Kits are fantastic. I have not bought Reason Pianos because I don't like the way Reason sound libraries are tied to Reason and not provided for use with other samplers.

I'm thinking about just buying Halion when Cubase 4 comes out and ditching Reason all together, because Rewire is a PITA. But then, my Reason and Reason Drum Kits (which I can't legally decode to WAV files for use in Halion) purchases would be dead money (over $800 AUD worth !).

Who knows though, Propellerheads produce very high quality, stable products ... and some of the effects in Reason are among the best I've heard, the Scream Distortion for me, is without competition in the VST world, I can't find anything that even comes close. The rest are replaceable, I actually prefer the old reverb instead of the new one because it has more stereo width ... am I the only one that hears this ? lol

Oh well, we'll see ... I'm more curious to see Cubase 4, Soanr 6 and Ableton 6 right now !
Fots

[ludwig]

Lack of tempo automation.

Yes, how could i forgot that. The lack of tempo automation is a real pain in the arse. And it seems to me that if you rewire Reason to an other sequencer, and you use this sequencer to create a tempo track and do tempo changes, Reason sometimes is a bit slow (and semms to be out of tempo for just a few beats if you do drastic tempo changes). Or is this because of my daw configuration?

[kmonkey]

The rest are replaceable, I actually prefer the old reverb instead of the new one because it has more stereo width ... am I the only one that hears this ? lol
Fots

No you are not. As it seems many users hear that including me. Though i dont use reason but i do remember that thing.

[headquest]

I have been a huge Reason fan ... until I recently grabbed Synth1 and produced a few tracks using it instead of Subtractor ... I then wondered why the quality of my music had suddenly been raised about 100 times. Now, after months of using Synth1, I open Reason and absolutely cringe at the sound of Subtractor.

It's an interesting comparisson, although I don't entirely agree with your conclusions. Synth 1 is one of the very few VST synths I also use. I think it has lots of similarities with Subtractor: for example, both sit very well in a mix, and aren't overpowering in the way some VST synths tend to be. But also some clear differences that are worth noting in order for a fair comparrison to be drawn...

The most significant difference to note is that Synth 1 is intended as a complete standalone instrument, rather than a component within a modular environment. Because of that, Synth 1 has several onboard effects built in - including EQ, distortion, chorus, flanger, and delay. Because it uses these effects, the sound is immediately fatter, whereas the Subtractor does not include these effects - it is assumed they will be added as part of the modular use of the instrument. Synth 1's effects contribute significantly to the nice sounds it is capable of; strip those effects away and you are left with a very basic subtractive synth which is in fact no match for Subtractor at all. On the other hand, if you apply the same raft of effects to Subtractor that Synth 1 includes, it's real capability shines.

A second point worth noting is that the dual filters on Subtractor are far more powerful than the single filter on Synth1, and also sound much nicer (at least to my ears they do - much better character).

A third factor that swings it for me is that I am a pro keyboard player/teacher. As such, the whole "Velocity" controls section on Subtractor is a real bonus. Being able to select from all those options and use velocty to contol different parameters is great, without having to delve into the midi assigning stuff in my host. Following on from that, the ReMote automapping in Reason makes Subtractor a much more playable instrument when I hook up my controller keyboard. With Synth 1 I think with a lot of work something similar might be acheived... but notice that it would be a lot of work.

Lastly, as I hinted above, I do think that (leaving effects asside) Subtractor is a far more flexible instrument in terms of the sounds it can produce. If you check out the variety of patches in the 1001 Subtractor Patches refill and compare it with the Synth 1 presents it rather proves this point, and that's before you add in those great filter sweeps Subtractor can produce. Synth 1 is a lovely VST synth that costs nothing, and I use it a lot in Live. It's sound can become boring very easily with overuse though, and many of the patches and presets that can be downloaded sound very similar to each other.

I guess that some people would say that Subtractor can become easy to spit, but because you can hook it up to e.g. Maelstrom to create one single monster synth, it ultimately has an expansion potential that I think Synth 1 lacks (although using Synth 1 within a Live 6 rack setup it's possible to create some very nice layered sounds with it ).

[lucille]

I think you make a good case for subtractors flexibility and simplicity--although
that no onboard fx strawman is getting tired. I haven't read anyone say--"I used to
hate subtractor, than I added reverb to the fx chain!" Puh-lease, give you critics
some credit. Re: 1001 Subtractor Patches refill --I suggest this corrective--
download the orion demo, load up toxic 2 or 3--step through the patches. Its a comparable product--a synth in a soft studio--yet it is so much better.

[drez]

Like others allready mentioned, the drrex should be able to import normal loops and automatically make rex2 files of it. I would also like to see the Rebirth machines in Reason. And what about this: better filters and oscs and modules, so you can build your own monster synth in the combinator (making Reason something like a Nord Modular software version).

+100000000

IMO just better filters and convo reverb combined with RV7000 and that's it. You dont need more

Have you used the Malstrom as a filter? I think it sounds awesome.

[Synthbuilder]

Re the Subtractor, well I've said it here before and on the Prop forum, but I firmly believe that the architecture of the Sub is probably one of the best there is. By architecture I mean its front panel layout, routing and features.

It really is a wonderfully designed musical synth. HQ's comment about the velocity and other routings is spot on too. The Sub would be a keyboard players dream. The problem is that the filter doesn't sound that great. At high resonance its positively pants, especially in the 24dB [four pole] mode. And it aliases and I don't like that.

I do like Synth1, but in Live, I am also able to use ASynth, Taurus and Poly Iblit. Between all of them, I am able to get most of my virtual analogue needs. Fortunately, I also have a couple of real analogues which have also been modified to do pretty much what I need.

I do miss Reason's phaser though. I'm not sure why but I do like the sound of that one. My best replacement for that one is Antii's Phase90.

[headquest]

I do miss Reason's phaser though. I'm not sure why but I do like the sound of that one. My best replacement for that one is Antii's Phase90.

Yes, it's a lovely phaser

In Live (when not using the Sonitus Modulator or Kjaerhus GMO1) I tend to reach for this freeware one, which I think is pretty amazing for £0.00:

http://www.kvraudio.com/get/970.html

Did you try it?

[Drhitman702]

Speaking of FR for Reason, another thing I would just love to see is DrReXT - with the ability to import ordinary audio loops/clips, slice and convert them to REX2 files, thus dispensing with ReCycle once and for all. Okay they would lose ReCycle revenue (probably not what it used to be anyway) but I think it would be another good selling point for Reason itself, and help it to stand out within the crowded marketplace.

I'd love this feature.

[John Vulich]

I think that you're giving the Propellerheads WAY too much credit here. I think that Brainspawn Forte, Xlutop Chainer and Tracktion's Rack Filters had implemented very similar features before the Combinator even existed.

Actually I think that the Combinator was inspired by hardware workstations, so yes I was slightly kidding . However, surely your comparissons are very wide of the mark - you're kidding now, right?

Tracktion's Rack Filters are a world away from the Combinator. IIRC they don't even allow you to set up a simple layer of two synths crossfaded via velocity layers, right? As for the other two, which I know less well, I would still bet that they don't allow you to use the oscillator of one virtual instrument to CV route to the LFO of another, while the whole thing is swept by the filter of a third, controlled in turn by a seperate pattern sequencer device, and all controlled by a single knob on the UI?

Every review I read of KORE compared it to the Combinator, I guess because it took the idea of layering stuff and assigning important features to just a few knobs (hardware in KORE's case, of course). As for Live 6's Racks, I have been beta testing them over the past month and a half, and the extent that they copy Combinator is uncanny. Every Live/Reason user involved in the beta test acknowledges that very openly.

I realize that the devices that I mentioned don't have the exact same feature sets as the ones in Reason, but I guess I see things like the Combinator, and Reason's Browser, more as an evolution of already existing concepts than the "innovation" that you see them as.

[Cryogenic]

The rest are replaceable, I actually prefer the old reverb instead of the new one because it has more stereo width ... am I the only one that hears this ? lol
Fots

No you are not. As it seems many users hear that including me. Though i dont use reason but i do remember that thing.

The ignorance is mind altering.

Is this because everyone only browse presets, with all it's bell and whistles, and do not ever go beyond or under the hood of anything?

[jacobh]

I have been a huge Reason fan ... until I recently grabbed Synth1 and produced a few tracks using it instead of Subtractor ... I then wondered why the quality of my music had suddenly been raised about 100 times. Now, after months of using Synth1, I open Reason and absolutely cringe at the sound of Subtractor.

It's an interesting comparisson, although I don't entirely agree with your conclusions. Synth 1 is one of the very few VST synths I also use. I think it has lots of similarities with Subtractor: for example, both sit very well in a mix, and aren't overpowering in the way some VST synths tend to be. But also some clear differences that are worth noting in order for a fair comparrison to be drawn...

The most significant difference to note is that Synth 1 is intended as a complete standalone instrument, rather than a component within a modular environment. Because of that, Synth 1 has several onboard effects built in - including EQ, distortion, chorus, flanger, and delay. Because it uses these effects, the sound is immediately fatter, whereas the Subtractor does not include these effects - it is assumed they will be added as part of the modular use of the instrument. Synth 1's effects contribute significantly to the nice sounds it is capable of; strip those effects away and you are left with a very basic subtractive synth which is in fact no match for Subtractor at all. On the other hand, if you apply the same raft of effects to Subtractor that Synth 1 includes, it's real capability shines.

A second point worth noting is that the dual filters on Subtractor are far more powerful than the single filter on Synth1, and also sound much nicer (at least to my ears they do - much better character).

A third factor that swings it for me is that I am a pro keyboard player/teacher. As such, the whole "Velocity" controls section on Subtractor is a real bonus. Being able to select from all those options and use velocty to contol different parameters is great, without having to delve into the midi assigning stuff in my host. Following on from that, the ReMote automapping in Reason makes Subtractor a much more playable instrument when I hook up my controller keyboard. With Synth 1 I think with a lot of work something similar might be acheived... but notice that it would be a lot of work.

Lastly, as I hinted above, I do think that (leaving effects asside) Subtractor is a far more flexible instrument in terms of the sounds it can produce. If you check out the variety of patches in the 1001 Subtractor Patches refill and compare it with the Synth 1 presents it rather proves this point, and that's before you add in those great filter sweeps Subtractor can produce. Synth 1 is a lovely VST synth that costs nothing, and I use it a lot in Live. It's sound can become boring very easily with overuse though, and many of the patches and presets that can be downloaded sound very similar to each other.

I guess that some people would say that Subtractor can become easy to spit, but because you can hook it up to e.g. Maelstrom to create one single monster synth, it ultimately has an expansion potential that I think Synth 1 lacks (although using Synth 1 within a Live 6 rack setup it's possible to create some very nice layered sounds with it ).

I agree here. Subtractor is a far more powerful instrument than people give credit for. Check out the demo track I did, entirely with Subtractors (even the drums are Subtractor). No other sound generating devices were used, and this is only with Reason's effects:

http://mindtrick.com/music/Phat_Math.mp3

The main thing I think that lets Synth1 be phatter in some circumstances, is it's Unison, and effects. But you can save Subtractor patches with effects using the Combinator, and you can get the unison effect stacking multiple Subtractors on top of each other and detuning them slightly (or using the UN-16 Unison, but this doesn't work as well for some things). As you say, the routing and dual filters of the Subtractor give it much more flexibility. I especially love the PWM options in the Subtractor. You can apply them to any waveform! Not just the pulse waveform. I have yet to see the PWM options rivaled in any other synth. And combining that with FM and Ring Modulatotion, there is some real power! Just listen to the sounds I programed in my song above.

The things I'd love to see in the new next version of the Subtractor are: real built-in Unison, and oversampling. Maybe some more filter types, and filter overdrive too. But there is some real power in Reason! Especially with the modular chaining and CV abilities.

Oh, and by the way, for those saying the older reverb is wider, just put the MClass Stereo Imager after the R7000, and widen it that way. To my ears, the R7000 is way more natural than the older reverb! I wish it was availalbe in my VST enviroment. It uses so little CPU, and sounds so lush! I too agree that Reason has some great effects. Scream4 is one of my favs.

[fgimian]

The rest are replaceable, I actually prefer the old reverb instead of the new one because it has more stereo width ... am I the only one that hears this ? lol
Fots

No you are not. As it seems many users hear that including me. Though i dont use reason but i do remember that thing.

The ignorance is mind altering.

Is this because everyone only browse presets, with all it's bell and whistles, and do not ever go beyond or under the hood of anything?

I never use presets, I have programmed some things with that reverb that use all features it has to offer, including the EQ and gate ... I still feel it's stereo imaging is not as good as the original reverb.

Fots

[ericj23]

what reason needs is a new version of the rewire protocol that gives an audio input - abbit like the rebirth thingie but more flexible - then people could use the reason fx on tracks they have recorded in there other mini rewire host - even on vsts if it works with them

now this does not necessarily break the stability of reason - all the vts and audio recording stuff would be the other apps problem, and as long as the rewire thing is tight enough a protocal the data stream should not crash reason

and neither does it break their long held notion that none of these things will be in reason - but this way they kind of will be if you need them

what else can they actually put in the program now to make it better - apart from more fx ? or should i say more attractive to joe punter - because there slow update schedule suggests that they ain't making money from updates