How useful is theory, and musical education

[robenestobenz]

On the other hand, most of my really inventive stuff comes from just playing it, and making mistakes that probably wouldn't be so easy to work out from theory.

Ultimately knowledge of theory makes those "happy accidents" occur more often, makes them reproduceable, and lets you understand why they sound good. I.E., less fishing, more catching.

I've definitely found this to be true. Being able to understand what made something a certain way is a valuable ability - you can memorise a permutation of components by way of your structural understanding and have the mood or feeling evoked much closer to hand next time you need it.

[Chuck E. Jesus]

learning music is a waste of time...just sample anything you want and learn how to count to 4 over and over....

[CypherOne]

it's really useful if you have no talent...

[nuffink]

it's really useful if you have no talent...

No, it won't help at all.

[CypherOne]

I know...

[nuffink]

Good. And since you can't learn talent, may as well do what you can to make your music more interesting.

[Lunatique]

It's interesting how in the last couple of years or so, the general attitude of KVR has changed so much. This used to be a place where at least half the people proudly proclaim "f**k theory! f**k melody! f**k all conventions of music! f**k knowing how to play an instrument!"

But in the last couple of years, we've gotten more members that actually have a clue, and that swung things around. Now the general attitude is much healthier--we don't see the extremist ignorance as much anymore. I like how KVR has evolved and grown into a place where there's a healthy diversity of opinions, and most understand that having knowledge and skill isn't some kind of nail in the coffin of creativity. Plenty of classically trained composers have done very experimental things--look at Philip Glass for example.

[nixnutz]

it's really useful if you have no talent...

No, it won't help at all.

I think it's helped me. Now my boring, irritating melodies are in the proper key, and I've added modulations!

So how big is music theory anyway? If you were a music major how many "theory" classes would you take? You learn about scales and modes and chords and notation, and what else is important?

On another issue; I agree that most popular music sucks, but people will disagree on which particular songs suck. I would imagine that most musicians and songwriters making terrible music actually have had a decent musical education. It's obviously a good thing, but at the extreme you can get into an academic mindset where you're likely to appeal mostly to your peers.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

It's interesting how in the last couple of years or so, the general attitude of KVR has changed so much. This used to be a place where at least half the people proudly proclaim "f**k theory! f**k melody! f**k all conventions of music! f**k knowing how to play an instrument!"

But in the last couple of years, we've gotten more members that actually have a clue, and that swung things around. Now the general attitude is much healthier--we don't see the extremist ignorance as much anymore. I like how KVR has evolved and grown into a place where there's a healthy diversity of opinions, and most understand that having knowledge and skill isn't some kind of nail in the coffin of creativity. Plenty of classically trained composers have done very experimental things--look at Philip Glass for example.

nice to see that this has been a change in kvr -- just like the change in a musician that grows from just liking punk and nirvana to learning the rules of music, and then how to break them further..... I hope this analogy applies to me

[Jason Brian Merrill]

it's really useful if you have no talent...

No, it won't help at all.

I think it's helped me. Now my boring, irritating melodies are in the proper key, and I've added modulations!

.

thats cool in a funny way

[ATS]

hoenstly it seems like every time I hear someones song who has a ton of knowledge about theory, etc. it seems like they aren't that good at actually putting together a really cool song.

[nuffink]

hoenstly it seems like every time I hear someones song who has a ton of knowledge about theory, etc. it seems like they aren't that good at actually putting together a really cool song.

Yeah, that's what's called "listening to shit music".

[ugo]

disclaimer: i am one of the worlds musically illiterate.

1. Does a formal musical education help or hinder?

help or hinder what? it can definitely help you write music since it teaches you how and why things sound "pleasing." whether it helps or hinders your creativity is a different question.

if you are generally the sort of person who tends to use knowlege to better express yourself emotionally and creatively, then i think knowing theory can only help as it can offer you a deeper understanding of how things work. for some things, there will be less guess work. for others, it can present possibilities you might not have otherwise considered.

however, if you are the sort of person who cant see past boundries once someone tells you they exist, then unless you're teachers are really open minded, you might let yourself get locked into a rut.

in general, i think of learning theory like learning a language. you can learn how to speak quite well by just talking to other people, but you may find that formal study of the language will help you be more eloquent.

Is it only useful for certain genres of music, and are there genres of music where a lack of musical education is an advantage?

i cant think of any genre where it would be advangateous to know less about what you are doing. if your music includes melodic and/or rhythmic content of any sort, then theory still applies. you may not know it, or be consciously applying it, but there are still technical defininitions to describe the structure of what you wrote, no matter how messed up it might sound, and those happy accidents you dig the groove of could potentially have been constructed on purpose if you knew how.

in that respect, i suppose you could think of theory like travel directions. you can still end up someplace cool just by wandering, but knowing how to actually get to the cool places may save you some time. of course there is still something to be said for the journey being part of the fun too. :shurg: but still, i cant see knowing the directions to some place as being all that much of a hinderance. its not like holding a map means you cant still find ways to wander off and experiance something new to you.

2. Could we all benefit from having a broader taste in music? What would anyone gain by refusing to listen to any music within a certain genre because they think they hate everything in that particular genre?

there is nothing to gain by ignoring other genres. all that does is lead to stagnation. i think there is something to be learned from every genre. not all may be applicable to what you are doing at the moment, but there is usually something to be gained that can be useful...even if its just a single technique that when applied to your kind of sound leads to something cool.

3. If there are any good books that anyone would recommend, what are they and why? Not just books on musical theory, etc., but books that might make you think differently about how music is played (what about someone's biography for example?)?

i dont know of any off hand, but i've be curious to find out too. i will say this though...i think there is a lot to be learned about expression and mood from people who write soundtracks, and i think some of that knowlege could come in handy even in a band environment.

[Hink]

I think people seem to ignore one fact, and I also believe this is the pitfall of public education. We all do not learn on the same schedule, and that doesn't make one more intelligent, or retarded for that matter, we all have our own processor speed. Think about how a faucet works, you open it enough to let the water you need through. Now think of a gate and what it does. Inside our brains I believe is a little gate that opens the faucet of knowledge in the brain when it's ready to take in more. So by default whether or not you should learn theory is not the question, like was mentioned before....play long enough and you'll learn without knowing. The trick is like any gate, setting the threshold.

Lock it shut (which I don't really think can be done), you learn nothing...keep it wide open you get flooded, but set the threshold to your personal processor speed and it's automatic at times....other times the gate is so open you need more than just what you pick up along the way and you thirst for more knowledge and you do some researching to quench that thirst. Not to sound like Rurik, but we're not robots...we're individuals each uniquely different.

It's as useful as you want it to be, you're going to learn all your life. It's up to you what you do with the info and how well you can process the info and apply it to the task at hand. Or the on the other hand you might set the release to just let go of the info...it's as useful as you want it to be.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

hoenstly it seems like every time I hear someones song who has a ton of knowledge about theory, etc. it seems like they aren't that good at actually putting together a really cool song.

you are likely listening to the wrong ones then