How useful is theory, and musical education

[o'malley]

It all depends on what you make of it. Personally I think the whole experience is worth while.

[rp314]

Theory and music education can be very useful but are still not always indispensable.

The more interesting aspect (which might baffle the folks from other galaxies observing human interaction in forums such as this one) is why this topic gets people so worked up even to the point that some eventually get banned.

When I was young there were artists in popular music who apparently lied about how much music theory they really knew, presumably to appear less traditional, and maybe that stigma still exists in some sectors. OTOH, being able to read music well is still important in some circles and music arranging is a viable commercial option.

I don't know, I guess all of this really plays with people's minds but there's no universal answer from what I've gleened over the years.

[DrApostropheX]

I'd say pretty useful if you want to move musically beyond your comfort zone.

[Hink]

Theory and music education can be very useful but are still not always indispensable.

The more interesting aspect (which might baffle the folks from other galaxies observing human interaction in forums such as this one) is why this topic gets people so worked up even to the point that some eventually get banned.

When I was young there were artists in popular music who apparently lied about how much music theory they really knew, presumably to appear less traditional, and maybe that stigma still exists in some sectors. OTOH, being able to read music well is still important in some circles and music arranging is a viable commercial option.

I don't know, I guess all of this really plays with people's minds but there's no universal answer from what I've gleened over the years.

it hits at the core of self esteem...validation is big, face it. The guy who has a degree in music will use it as validation, just as the accomplished self taught will use that as validation...forums like these provide a place for them to come head to head...the truth is imo that outside validation is bogus and short lived....but as long as there are those seeking validation there will be flame wars between the two...when in fact they could both learn from each other if they would try a little listening with all their flaming...

[Stupid American Pig]

Theory and music education can be very useful but are still not always indispensable.

The more interesting aspect (which might baffle the folks from other galaxies observing human interaction in forums such as this one) is why this topic gets people so worked up even to the point that some eventually get banned.

When I was young there were artists in popular music who apparently lied about how much music theory they really knew, presumably to appear less traditional, and maybe that stigma still exists in some sectors. OTOH, being able to read music well is still important in some circles and music arranging is a viable commercial option.

I don't know, I guess all of this really plays with people's minds but there's no universal answer from what I've gleened over the years.

it hits at the core of self esteem...validation is big, face it. The guy who has a degree in music will use it as validation, just as the accomplished self taught will use that as validation...forums like these provide a place for them to come head to head...the truth is imo that outside validation is bogus and short lived....but as long as there are those seeking validation there will be flame wars between the two...when in fact they could both learn from each other if they would try a little listening with all their flaming...

This may be the exception and not the rule, but I know a person with a degree in jazz music theory, and I also know one of the music theory professors at the University of Houston. Neither are cocky about their knowledge and have always been very helpful to me when I have questions. It kinda works out great when we hang out, as I know more about the software/hardware side of things, and they know the theory side of things pretty well.

[Hink]

Theory and music education can be very useful but are still not always indispensable.

The more interesting aspect (which might baffle the folks from other galaxies observing human interaction in forums such as this one) is why this topic gets people so worked up even to the point that some eventually get banned.

When I was young there were artists in popular music who apparently lied about how much music theory they really knew, presumably to appear less traditional, and maybe that stigma still exists in some sectors. OTOH, being able to read music well is still important in some circles and music arranging is a viable commercial option.

I don't know, I guess all of this really plays with people's minds but there's no universal answer from what I've gleened over the years.

it hits at the core of self esteem...validation is big, face it. The guy who has a degree in music will use it as validation, just as the accomplished self taught will use that as validation...forums like these provide a place for them to come head to head...the truth is imo that outside validation is bogus and short lived....but as long as there are those seeking validation there will be flame wars between the two...when in fact they could both learn from each other if they would try a little listening with all their flaming...

This may be the exception and not the rule, but I know a person with a degree in jazz music theory, and I also know one of the music theory professors at the University of Houston. Neither are cocky about their knowledge and have always been very helpful to me when I have questions. It kinda works out great when we hang out, as I know more about the software/hardware side of things, and they know the theory side of things pretty well.

well I was addressing why these threads turn the way they do...so what I'm saying might be the exception...I just saying when things turn bad I have noticed that one or more parties are seeking validation....a music theory professor and a someone with a degree jazz theory will likely not have that validation thing happening due to a well established mutual respect for each other. Here chests puff out fast and face it there are those who are just plain arrogant and extremists on either side of any issue...because no mutual respect is there, things turn bad.

Simply, your friends understand that they learn from each other by having a pleasent conversation. Here people disagree over who is right and who is wrong, there is no in betwen ground. Soon people forget that it's our differences that will expand our lives and understanding...not just the things we have in common.

[VicDiesel]

The more interesting aspect (which might baffle the folks from other galaxies observing human interaction in forums such as this one) is why this topic gets people so worked up even to the point that some eventually get banned.

it hits at the core of self esteem...validation is big, face it. The guy who has a degree in music will use it as validation, just as the accomplished self taught will use that as validation...

Hm.... I think that the self-taught contingent typically doth protest more than the theoreticians in such discussions. Is that a sign of their deep insecurity? Dunno.

But you sometimes wonder.

I had a friend once who had no musical education but liked lots of classical music. Once he put on Bach's Kunst Der Fuge, and I remarked about one particular canon that I was always struck by the contrast of how simple it sounded, and how intricate the structure was. That made him fly into a rage, attacking me for not "feeling" the music and god-knows-what. First of all, he missed my point which was precisely about my feeling the music, and secondly I later realized that it must have been his insecurity of being uneducated among educated music lovers that made him react like that.

Personally I think the matter is irrelevant. I don't remember ever having received a criticism on my posted music that it was too rule-bound, even though I know tons of music theory, and outside of my classical music collection I have no idea whether the composers are formally trained and I dont' care either.

Victor.

[vurt]

there is a difference between having knowledge and knowing how to use that knowledge though.
as for insecuritys, no, its probably just a reaction to the educated thinking theyre right all the time just because they have an education

[Hink]

The more interesting aspect (which might baffle the folks from other galaxies observing human interaction in forums such as this one) is why this topic gets people so worked up even to the point that some eventually get banned.

it hits at the core of self esteem...validation is big, face it. The guy who has a degree in music will use it as validation, just as the accomplished self taught will use that as validation...

Hm.... I think that the self-taught contingent typically doth protest more than the theoreticians in such discussions. Is that a sign of their deep insecurity? Dunno.

But you sometimes wonder.

I had a friend once who had no musical education but liked lots of classical music. Once he put on Bach's Kunst Der Fuge, and I remarked about one particular canon that I was always struck by the contrast of how simple it sounded, and how intricate the structure was. That made him fly into a rage, attacking me for not "feeling" the music and god-knows-what. First of all, he missed my point which was precisely about my feeling the music, and secondly I later realized that it must have been his insecurity of being uneducated among educated music lovers that made him react like that.

Personally I think the matter is irrelevant. I don't remember ever having received a criticism on my posted music that it was too rule-bound, even though I know tons of music theory, and outside of my classical music collection I have no idea whether the composers are formally trained and I dont' care either.

Victor.

myself, like everything in life I just keep learning as I go along...that's why I really have no problem admitting when I'm wrong...I learn more by being wrong than being right.

there is a difference between having knowledge and knowing how to use that knowledge though.
as for insecuritys, no, its probably just a reaction to the educated thinking theyre right all the time just because they have an education

it would be convenient to go along with that and often it is true...yeah being an ex NCO I understand the educated assuming they know more...but in the throws of battle (not that I saw much battle besides over a beer) those same young educated officers turn to the sargent who has been in the service for 20 years to know what to do. Here it is the same with some but it's so transparent it becomes a good laugh. The thing is it's still always wise to listen, they may not be right all the time...but everyone is right sometimes...like you're right about applying knowledge. Applying means understanding, many people know things without ever understanding them.

There are some interesting reads if you hunt for them on critical thinking, creative thinking and productive thinking...the latter ultimately the objective is being a combo of the other two...

[vurt]

whether right or wrong the pompous should be ignored and shunned into exile.

[TVD]

Theory and music education can be very useful but are still not always indispensable.

The more interesting aspect (which might baffle the folks from other galaxies observing human interaction in forums such as this one) is why this topic gets people so worked up even to the point that some eventually get banned.

When I was young there were artists in popular music who apparently lied about how much music theory they really knew, presumably to appear less traditional, and maybe that stigma still exists in some sectors. OTOH, being able to read music well is still important in some circles and music arranging is a viable commercial option.

I don't know, I guess all of this really plays with people's minds but there's no universal answer from what I've gleened over the years.

it hits at the core of self esteem...validation is big, face it. The guy who has a degree in music will use it as validation, just as the accomplished self taught will use that as validation...forums like these provide a place for them to come head to head...the truth is imo that outside validation is bogus and short lived....but as long as there are those seeking validation there will be flame wars between the two...when in fact they could both learn from each other if they would try a little listening with all their flaming...

Exactly.

[jplanet]

Just my $.02 on the whole theory thing:

I like to think of theory as spice to a chef or a color to a painter. When you first try it, you will use too much of it...then you will think you are better off without it, then at some point you will find when to use it and when not to.

Another good analogy...I can cook a mean tomato sauce, with no formal culinary training. I like my sauce better than most sauces I have at expensive restaurants. But one time recently I had to cook in a different pot, and I burned the sauce beecause I didn't know the science behind the difference of heat absorption compared to the pot I am accustomed to.

So, the trick is, keep the fun inspired things you come up with when you are just thinking creatively, but have that theory in your back pocket for when you hear a harmony or melody that you don't have the patience to learn by accident, or in many other times to get out of a pinch you couldn't do otherwise.

Theory is completely indispensible when collaborating. It's just a much more reliable way of getting good results, if you can say to someone "just solo in E phrygian" rather than saying "do some flamenco-sounding thing".

[TVD]

It's interesting how in the last couple of years or so, the general attitude of KVR has changed so much. This used to be a place where at least half the people proudly proclaim "f**k theory! f**k melody! f**k all conventions of music! f**k knowing how to play an instrument!"

But in the last couple of years, we've gotten more members that actually have a clue, and that swung things around. Now the general attitude is much healthier--we don't see the extremist ignorance as much anymore. I like how KVR has evolved and grown into a place where there's a healthy diversity of opinions, and most understand that having knowledge and skill isn't some kind of nail in the coffin of creativity. Plenty of classically trained composers have done very experimental things--look at Philip Glass for example.

What a difference 15 months makes!

[Hink]

whether right or wrong the pompous should be ignored and shunned into exile.

you're so right...10 months 7 days and I move to Maine...I'll share my home with mother nature, instead of asswipes....

[vurt]

thats a very specific timeframe for moving considering its quite far off.
most people would say "im moving to wherever next year".

either way, no trees to hug in new england?