Sonalksis Essentials Love

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This is turning into a very interesting thread indeed.

Welcome to KVR Dave, your Sonalksis EQ is still one of the very best out there imho.

Kudos to complementing Elisounds AirEQ, which is fantastic, especially at the top end.

I think the AirEQ pretty much proves how extremely well crafted algorithms negate the need for cpu munching oversampling, so I don't see why sonalksis has to go in that direction either, maybe offer it as an option with ultra high quality resampling (but again lots of cpu being used) but better to work on newer algorithms. After all one of the great things about the Sonalksis EQ (as with AirEQ) is the fact that the cpu's so low you can put in on every single track!

I'm really surprised someone here thinks the URS plugs are hi-end, their top end is pretty piss poor and they cause all kinds of other problems too, I think someone was sucked in by the GUI's on that one ;)

Whilst the 517 and AirEQ are similarly priced, they both offer something quite different. Both high quality but very different sounds. I was tweaking a track using one, then I used the other. Then I A/B'ed them to each other. Both sounded different, but I liked both of them in different ways.

Combined they make the ultimate partnership of eq for producing with.

Regarding the TBK, Sorry Dave, i Do feel thats Sonalksis one and only mistake as a plug-in so far.

My biggest problem with it is the response of the reasonance, what happens is as you increase the cutoff, its cutoff peak sounds all nice and bright and buildup up nicely.

But then just before it reaches maximum it suddenly goes very flat, not audible pleasing and not really the effect we're after (and a problem I've never had with any other filter plugin in that way). Which of course defeats the whole point of an adaptive reasonance point. We would like proper control over the reasonance please!.

..oh and ditch those Absolute 2's, horrible monitors. Genelecs will be a big improvement, my personal recommendation though is Dynaudio ;)

Arksun

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Arksun wrote:This is turning into a very interesting thread indeed.

Welcome to KVR Dave, your Sonalksis EQ is still one of the very best out there imho.
Many thanks! I will pass your complements on to the authors!
Arksun wrote:Regarding the TBK, Sorry Dave, i Do feel thats Sonalksis one and only mistake as a plug-in so far.

My biggest problem with it is the response of the reasonance, what happens is as you increase the cutoff, its cutoff peak sounds all nice and bright and buildup up nicely.

But then just before it reaches maximum it suddenly goes very flat, not audible pleasing and not really the effect we're after (and a problem I've never had with any other filter plugin in that way). Which of course defeats the whole point of an adaptive reasonance point. We would like proper control over the reasonance please!.
Meh :(
I made TBK in my spare time, before I joined Sonalksis!
Bummer. Well, I take some consolation in that most people I talk to are REALLY EXCITED by TBK...
Everything has its critics, and I'm really sorry you're not so keen.
We WILL do a version with continuous resonance and LFO+Env... it's on the TODO list, so you will get your wish, fear not ;)

Just to justify, the whole idea with TBK was to give people a filter that always sounded "GOOD". It's not the most aggressive, crazy-ass filter - far from it.
It all started when I listened to Shapeshifter's "Lola's Theme" too many times, and got annoyed that I didn't have a good filter to play with. So, with a friend (the ultra-talented graphic artist and record producer), we made one!

In a nutshell, if you automate a 4bar filtersweep with TBK, on a bus full of melodic stuff, and you just automate the cutoff and set the automation curvature, I reckon it sounds better than anything else out there.
But that's just me. ;)
And it's great for all manner of other stuff too... like HPFing basslines out of samples... ;)
Arksun wrote:..oh and ditch those Absolute 2's, horrible monitors. Genelecs will be a big improvement, my personal recommendation though is Dynaudio ;)
A very good friend of mine uses Dynaudios, and they are great.
I like my Abs2s though, they're like old friends ;)
I know they have bad habits, but they've stuck with me! :D

Dave.

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Wow, this thread is off the hook! Dave from Sonalksis! Fabrice from Eliosound!..."Orfanidis"!?! :lol

Dave, thanks for weathering our criticisms of TBK and welcome to the forum. Don't get caught here, though! Remember to develop. And eat! :D

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bduffy wrote:Wow, this thread is off the hook! Dave from Sonalksis! Fabrice from Eliosound!..."Orfanidis"!?! :lol

Dave, thanks for weathering our criticisms of TBK and welcome to the forum. Don't get caught here, though! Remember to develop. And eat! :D
Dude... this is REALLY ADDICTIVE! It's that "notify me when a reply is posted" button that does it.
My mac beeps... so i click the link in the email, and OH NO! I've hit reply again! This is dark.
Any tips for not getting sucked in?

Btw, Orfanidis wrote THE definitive paper on modern digital EQ design!
Before that, a lot of digital EQs sounded pretty rough...!
I seem to remember it being in the AES journals... but it's possible that there's a copy floating around online somewhere.

Well, if it's any consolation, I'll definitely go quiet this weekend, because I am going to PARIS! I am excited. I am going to go and explore the Louvre (again!)... if I can find the time. We're having a big Sonalksis meeting thing! We're so hip! Paris! Hee hee hee! :)

Dave.

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DaveSonalksis wrote:
bduffy wrote:Wow, this thread is off the hook! Dave from Sonalksis! Fabrice from Eliosound!..."Orfanidis"!?! :lol

Dave, thanks for weathering our criticisms of TBK and welcome to the forum. Don't get caught here, though! Remember to develop. And eat! :D
Dude... this is REALLY ADDICTIVE! It's that "notify me when a reply is posted" button that does it.
My mac beeps... so i click the link in the email, and OH NO! I've hit reply again! This is dark.
Any tips for not getting sucked in?

Btw, Orfanidis wrote THE definitive paper on modern digital EQ design!
Before that, a lot of digital EQs sounded pretty rough...!
I seem to remember it being in the AES journals... but it's possible that there's a copy floating around online somewhere.

Well, if it's any consolation, I'll definitely go quiet this weekend, because I am going to PARIS! I am excited. I am going to go and explore the Louvre (again!)... if I can find the time. We're having a big Sonalksis meeting thing! We're so hip! Paris! Hee hee hee! :)

Dave.
Any tips on not getting hooked...don't look at me, check my post count! :bang:

Thanks for clearing up Orfanidis, I don't really know an algorithm from an afro-rhythm, but I know what I like, and AirEQ and SV-517 are the best there is. It does seem like EQ software technology has really hit a sweet-spot now; there is almost too much choice for the digital mixer now! :o And I've completely abandoned the Cubase track-EQ, which used to be used constantly; thank god you guys code awesome EQ's that don't use much resources! I look forward to future products from you guys, and beware, I have a credit card now. :scared:

Paris! I am sick with envy. The closest I get to Paris is my wife's copy of "Amelie". You guys have a gay old time! :D

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smart wrote::love:
wow, look what I started! :D

Thanks Dave and Fabrice for a very interesting read so far. It's great to hear devs talking tech and being very friendly about it. As a user (and not a coder) I think it's helpful to learn about this stuff!
Image

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you guys rock 8)

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DaveSonalksis wrote:YAY! I didn't think you were here on KvR!! Hello!
Hi !! What I like with KVR is the "Matrix effect". Everybody meet there, and we all finish to have a chat and make the things better ! ;)

DaveSonalksis wrote:d2 isn't Orfanidis, or even Orfanidis related - it IS the same as you - I'm almost 100% sure! (I might have used a hexeditor to confirm my suspicions too... SORRY!!! I +HAD+ to know!! ;) )
Forte is the based on the same idea as d2, but I refined it, and made it more accurate.
OK. I must admit that I can't say what IS the exact technique which is used in the plugins which I tested out. :oops: What relates my measurements is how the shapes looks like, so I suppose that if a bell looks like an Orfanidis one, and that I can match the measured bell with an Orfanidis bell, it is Orfanidis.. But it may also not be the case !
That is also why I mention "warped curves" on the comparison chart, because I can only tell about the result, no precisely the technique which is used.

DaveSonalksis wrote:However, for the Saffire EQs, I use some pseudo advanced-orfanidis stuff.
So Saffire EQ and Forte EQ do not use the same algorithms and do not have the same shapes ? (and do not use the same filtering technique ?)

DaveSonalksis wrote:Then it's definitely the same one ;)
I'm not as sure as you are ! But we'll see. In fact the AMLT technique is not inspired from any existing technical paper, we built it from scratch, from our personnal ideas and research.
DaveSonalksis wrote:Well, if it's any consolation, I'll definitely go quiet this weekend, because I am going to PARIS! I am excited. I am going to go and explore the Louvre (again!)... if I can find the time. We're having a big Sonalksis meeting thing! We're so hip! Paris! Hee hee hee! :)
So we'll maybe meet in Paris ! ;)
I'll also be at the AES convention, for those who wants to talk with me.. It will be a pleasure !


Fabrice,
Eliosound

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DaveSonalksis wrote:
bmanic wrote:No, fidelity, as in how the transients survive.
Ah, this will be a matter of phase response!
This is REALLY subtle stuff! You have cool hearing!

And good monitoring! What do you use?
I'm currently running Absolute2s, which are ok for most things...
I'm getting some Genelec 1030s, which I've been lusting after for years - back at Focusrite we always used Genelecs for testing - although that was mostly because they never exploded ;)
Heh.. I have the Genelec 8030a + 7050 subwoofer as my main monitoring. Nothing spectacular but good enough for some serious mixing in a properly treated studio room.

Btw. Whatever you do, do NOT get the 1030! UGH! It's like.. like the stone age of Genelec. Please audition the new 80xx series instead, like the 8040 (replaces the 1030). It's far far far superior (less overall distortion, far superior speaker elements.. especially the tweeter. Better transient response, far better imaging and "depth").

If you have the $$ then go for the 8050, then you have basically a "full range" studio monitor. I've work so much with the 1030 and 1031 and 1032 genelecs that it made me a genelec hater.. until they released the new series.

About the transients of EQs, I've always thought that is one of the main things. That's also the reason why some analogue EQs sound harsh (at least I think it is, also on a technical level! Or??) or that's what I hear/interpret. I don't know what kills the transients, in the analogue domain it's probably all kinds of not-wanted distortion that kind of "spikes" them and in the digital domain aliasing is one sure culprit (another can be linear phase EQs with too short IRs making that nasty 'ringing' thing on each transient).

Btw, awesome discussion Fabrice and Dave! Keep it up! :)

Cheers!
bManic


PS. Oh, and in case you missed this:
bmanic wrote:Here is the "How do you judge an EQ?" thread. There is a lot to read trough and a lot of debate but there are several audio examples too and awesome explanations from Christian Budde (developer of Electri-Q).

The issue with transients is discussed from page 6, ->
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle

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bmanic wrote:About the transients of EQs, I've always thought that is one of the main things. That's also the reason why some analogue EQs sound harsh (at least I think it is, also on a technical level! Or??) or that's what I hear/interpret. I don't know what kills the transients, in the analogue domain it's probably all kinds of not-wanted distortion that kind of "spikes" them.
If you push the highs too far on an analog EQ, yes, the highs may sound harsh because of the power supply limitations (maximum voltage reached). It can be very annoying on vocal sibilances for example, because you also have to think about the whole signal path, and to take care of the signal level at each step, not only for the ouput signal. And you also must deal with signal to noise ratio, i.e. minimizing the headroom before high frequency saturation.

bmanic wrote:Btw, awesome discussion Fabrice and Dave! Keep it up! :)
We'll try to ! ;)


Fabrice,
Eliosound

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bmanic wrote:
About the transients of EQs, I've always thought that is one of the main things. That's also the reason why some analogue EQs sound harsh (at least I think it is, also on a technical level! Or??) or that's what I hear/interpret. I don't know what kills the transients, in the analogue domain it's probably all kinds of not-wanted distortion that kind of "spikes" them and in the digital domain aliasing is one sure culprit (another can be linear phase EQs with too short IRs making that nasty 'ringing' thing on each transient).


Cheers!
bManic
agreed.... IMHO that is one of the main things for me too. About monitors: I just need a pair of headphones (even walkman ones connected to a decent audio card) to hear this. So monitors are not so important, I suggest headphones for listening this kind of details.

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Hi DaveSonalksis,

I'm a big fan of your 315 compressor. after all this time, it is still one of my goto comps (and I do have all the UAD comps here as well). the only improvement I might suggest is to the GR meter. it's just to damn hard to read most of the time (or perhaps it's just me getting older...). a nice VU style GR meter would be very welcome indeed!

Thanks, and carry on with the great discussion! :)

Best,
midi.

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I have to agree about the 315. It's a great compressor. I find that it sounds good on just about anything. It's definately the best I have worked with for vocals and acoustic instruments. Most other compressors cloud up the sound or pump more than what I'm looking for. I know a lot of people like Blockfish, but to my ears, it takes away from the natural sound of the instrument. I believe its due to the saturation. I think Sasha said something to the same affect around here not too long ago. The 315 and the 517 were well worth the money. They are literally on everything I work on.

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bmanic wrote:If you plan on updating the SV 517 EQ then I highly suggest you try to upgrade it's fidelity too (oversampling perhaps?). You could add an extra button for toggling between original mode (could be default) and oversampled mode so that it retains compatibility with old projects.

Btw, there is a thread somewhere at the sonalksis forum where I clearly demonstrate the benefits of oversampling the SV 517 EQ (audio examples and all).

Cheers!
bManic
i was under the impression that a well designed plain (ie. non harmonic) digital min phase eq shouldnt have any aliasing? so sees no benefit from upsampling in this area. also i find that realtime oversampling itself is quite different to working at a higher samplerate since theres audible change to the phase response in the highs with poly phase.
bmanic wrote: Heh.. I have the Genelec 8030a + 7050 subwoofer as my main monitoring. Nothing spectacular but good enough for some serious mixing in a properly treated studio room.
me too, and i think for free-standing nearfield application genelec 8000 series are leading the way quite a bit atm, simply by considering more than just internal speaker academics. their MDE design and pods are excellent, makes for a huge improvement to freq response and imaging in small rooms over square speakers (assuming you cant flush mount).

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martian wrote:
bmanic wrote:If you plan on updating the SV 517 EQ then I highly suggest you try to upgrade it's fidelity too (oversampling perhaps?). You could add an extra button for toggling between original mode (could be default) and oversampled mode so that it retains compatibility with old projects.

Btw, there is a thread somewhere at the sonalksis forum where I clearly demonstrate the benefits of oversampling the SV 517 EQ (audio examples and all).

Cheers!
bManic
i was under the impression that a well designed plain (ie. non harmonic) digital min phase eq shouldnt have any aliasing? so sees no benefit from upsampling in this area. also i find that realtime oversampling itself is quite different to working at a higher samplerate since theres audible change to the phase response in the highs with poly phase.
That's right. The benefit is in that designing the EQ curves to be nice and symmetric up at 18k is a simpler task at 96k. Alas, designing GOOD upsampling and downsampling filters is a very very hard task... and yes, non-cpu-intensive samplerate conversion will mess with all sorts of things. For "HIFI" EQ, samplerate conversion is a BIG nono.
There's no free lunch in this game! ;)
martian wrote:
bmanic wrote: Heh.. I have the Genelec 8030a + 7050 subwoofer as my main monitoring. Nothing spectacular but good enough for some serious mixing in a properly treated studio room.
me too, and i think for free-standing nearfield application genelec 8000 series are leading the way quite a bit atm, simply by considering more than just internal speaker academics. their MDE design and pods are excellent, makes for a huge improvement to freq response and imaging in small rooms over square speakers (assuming you cant flush mount).
I've yet to check them out! But I look forwards to it ;)

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