KVR Audio

Kalamata Kid · Post by **Kalamata Kid** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:32 pm

Wow! My first impression on the Sampletekk piano. Very nice Moonlight Sonata. I will look into it some more.

BTW my computer crashed while listening. Did anyone else have this problem? I suspect it was not at fault but due to several computer problems lately just want to be sure

matto · Post by **matto** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:57 pm

Gregjazz wrote:[It is indeed very realistic, but it takes a lot of RAM, hard disk space, and takes a while to load up. Not to mention it's DFD, so you get all of the problems that come with that--note dropping, maybe some click noises or whatnot.

Can't disagree with the first part of your statement obviously, but I've never had any DFD problems whatsoever with 7CG. Once it's loaded it plays like a charm for me, no matter what I throw at it.

Gregjazz · Post by **Gregjazz** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:44 am

I guess the issue for me mainly is the loading time and RAM of those large sampled pianos. Don't get me wrong, I own a couple of the lighter Sampletekk pianos (the 4-5 gig ones), and they're fantastic! But I always try to freeze the track as soon as possible because I dislike the long wait times for my project files to load.

egbert · Post by **egbert** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:01 am

Gregjazz wrote:I guess the issue for me mainly is the loading time and RAM of those large sampled pianos. Don't get me wrong, I own a couple of the lighter Sampletekk pianos (the 4-5 gig ones), and they're fantastic! But I always try to freeze the track as soon as possible because I dislike the long wait times for my project files to load.

Yes - that's the problem really. Songs with 10 minute load times are a drag and people clamour for 64 bit windows so they can load much more. Understandable, but we will be entering an age where loading songs from scratch could take as much as half an hour. Flash RAM is coming to a PC near you very soon so perhaps there will be workarounds there.

benjamind · Post by **benjamind** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:11 am

egbert wrote:
Gregjazz wrote:I guess the issue for me mainly is the loading time and RAM of those large sampled pianos. Don't get me wrong, I own a couple of the lighter Sampletekk pianos (the 4-5 gig ones), and they're fantastic! But I always try to freeze the track as soon as possible because I dislike the long wait times for my project files to load.
Yes - that's the problem really. Songs with 10 minute load times are a drag and people clamour for 64 bit windows so they can load much more. Understandable, but we will be entering an age where loading songs from scratch could take as much as half an hour. Flash RAM is coming to a PC near you very soon so perhaps there will be workarounds there.

Well, that's only a problem if we continue on the sampler path. If we turn to physical modelling and resynthesis for realistic acoustic instruments, we will find that the loading time of songs is amazingly fast. And the sound, probably a whole heck of a lot more human too. I hate samples, they are lifeless and so robotic for solo instruments, the piano being an exception but even here you feel limited by samples. I know this sounds stupid, but I've given up sample libraries for good. I plan on only using synths like Tassman/String Studio/etc because I feel that they provide a human element that samples just cannot.

egbert · Post by **egbert** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:23 am

I won't be dumping my drum samples any time soon but I think you are right about where this is all heading. As soon as a physical model is adequate, users will discard the sample based equivalent - saving on disk space, RAM footprint and load time at the cost of some CPU load. Other posters have commented before on preferring Ziokiller's excellent Mr Ray to Scarbee's (now defunct) Rhodes sample set - simply because Mr Ray is quick loading and "good enough".

HamsterMadness · Post by **HamsterMadness** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:52 am

The flashRAM you are referring to is nothing more than highspeed flash memory for things like swapping and hibernation related techniques. Even if it's used for swapping it's much slower than using normal RAM. The only real advantage is seek times (versus harddisks) and taking such an module with you for having your own 'desktop' with you which Vista could use where ever you are.

I've not tried the huge 4+ Gb piano libraries from Sampletekk, but I can't imagine a currently available PC handling 128+ polyphony on such a piano with truely dynamic playing in realtime when samples are streamed from disc.. Not to mention even the idea of having several of such large instruments/library playing in realtime simultaneously.

egbert wrote:
Gregjazz wrote:I guess the issue for me mainly is the loading time and RAM of those large sampled pianos. Don't get me wrong, I own a couple of the lighter Sampletekk pianos (the 4-5 gig ones), and they're fantastic! But I always try to freeze the track as soon as possible because I dislike the long wait times for my project files to load.
Yes - that's the problem really. Songs with 10 minute load times are a drag and people clamour for 64 bit windows so they can load much more. Understandable, but we will be entering an age where loading songs from scratch could take as much as half an hour. Flash RAM is coming to a PC near you very soon so perhaps there will be workarounds there.

egbert · Post by **egbert** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:39 pm

HamsterMadness wrote:The flashRAM you are referring to is nothing more than highspeed flash memory for things like swapping and hibernation related techniques.

That seems somewhat tautological to me but carry on

Even if it's used for swapping it's much slower than using normal RAM. The only real advantage is seek times (versus harddisks) and taking such an module with you for having your own 'desktop' with you which Vista could use where ever you are.

The fastest non-volatile RAM can rival the read speeds of hard drives given a fast enough interface. There are also some other really fast non-volatile memory types in development - watch this space because disk I/O is THE big bottle neck in PCs and resources are being thrown at addressing this by some big players in the industry - eg Intel and Microsoft.

With 32 GB modules sitting on SATA for example there is potential for loading your favorite instruments (or parts thereof) into a non-volatile memory bank. The big time waster with disk I/o is seek times as you say so putting a buffer in non volatile RAMs could reduce the need to load a small piece of every sample into the main system RAM - necessitating a couple of thosand seeks. If you absolutely need to buffer the front end of 2000 files in main RAM you could read that set of buffers as one continuous transfer from non volatile RAM (or even from a preformed monolithic buffer on hard disk for that matter). Being able to accelerate sample loading is clearly something that needs attention.

I've not tried the huge 4+ Gb piano libraries from Sampletekk, but I can't imagine a currently available PC handling 128+ polyphony on such a piano with truely dynamic playing in realtime when samples are streamed from disc.

Not to mention even the idea of having several of such large instruments/library playing in realtime simultaneously.

These are not subjects requiring imagination or speculation - I have such pianos and a vanilla Seagate 7200rpm ATA drive will easily play back with adequate polyphony (eg 100+ unique stereo voices) in Kontakt 2 or several other streaming samplers and it will do it on a 3 or 4 year old computer.

If you want several instruments (eg big piano sample set, big drum kit sample set, big string orchestra set) playing at once then you simply distribute them over a few drives on different SATA cables. Dual core PCs with 2GB eat that sort of load for breakfast.

HamsterMadness · Post by **HamsterMadness** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:09 pm

Hi,

Well if you say so I believe you... However using a full 4+ gb pianolibary without any limitations or specific lower quality settings including things like sympathetic resonance on a 3-4 year old PC.. I find that a bit hard to swallow. Especially when considering rendering times I've read about with VSTi's like the Grand (2) etc.

Part of your explanation seems to be targeted at hardware that will only be affordable in 2-3 years from now. By then CPUs will have at least 2-3 times the speed they have now.

Dual core CPUs currently only have one advantage.. That's when more threads are used, and thus if the VST host engine splits several VSTi's over the available logical cores.

So sure.. In a few years, 4+ gb libraries are easier to use without too many tricks. However as long as the rendering time of saw a 15 minute long solo piano track takes longer than 10-13 minutes on the computer you want to use the instrument with the user is limited in using an instrument up to it's full potential.

Things like a CPU economic mode while playing basically is nonsense (e.g. the Grand 2). Instant feedback while playing an instrument is very important. Adding additional polyphony while rendering, or e.g. more velocity layer details is a limiting factor for the musician since he only gets an incomplete feedback while actually playing the instrument himself.

It actually sound like hey.. Windows XP runs perfectly on my P3 400 Mhz PC with 128 MB of RAM.. Sure it does.. But it doesn't make it an enjoyable experience.

So in short.. Why dealing with limitations or having to open a bag of tricks when in the near future there might be instruments with similar quality which only require 64-256 MB of RAM, and makes your Dual Core CPU really laugh because of a nearly unnoticable amount of CPU power being required ?

Personally I'd be amazed if in 5 years from now these huge single instrument libraries would still even be considered. To me they represent dinosaurs with absolute lack of innovation.

benjamind · Post by **benjamind** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:30 am

Those huge libraries are heading the way of the dinosaurs. Heck, I'd even prefer to use Tassman (in it's current version 4) than most sample libraries. Samples just suck. They lack fluid playability and expression. Sure, some sample libraries like Colossus have wonderful quality of the actual recorded samples and are thus somewhat playable if you stick within a certain paradigm, but let's all face this hard fact - sample libraries in general have a SERIOUS limitation - the ability to fluidly change the sound from one timbre to another (expression) and from one note to another (legato/portamento). Expression and fluid playability is the one thing that I cannot truly find in any sample library and to prove the point I can say, with absolute authority, that the overall expression possibilities even in a basic analog synth will absolutely SHIT all over your typical sample-playback based instrument.

Spitfire31 · Post by **Spitfire31** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:51 am

benjamind wrote:Expression and fluid playability is the one thing that I cannot truly find in any sample library

Have you checked out Garritan's Stradivari? It might just change your mind. Not a piano, though...

www.garritan.com/stradivari.html

/Joey

HamsterMadness · Post by **HamsterMadness** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:33 pm

Well Garritan matched the start of the samples to avoid phasing when going to one sample to another and applied a convolution reverb to simulate the Stradivari body.. Not much more to it actually..

This however won't work for a piano. There are too many harmonics involved by string interactions. They are different depending on the velocity a key is struck at. Since you can never perfectly hit the same key while sampling twice with the exact same result this will always cause some phasing.

There is also a problem with large piano libraries that when they act like a piano, when hitting the same note twice the first note doesn't immediately die out. It blends with the new struck note till it dies.. Depending on the timing versus the current vibration of the string(s) this may be nearly immediate or a it might take a bit longer. With piano libraries with multiple sample layers for several velocities this will always cause phasing, unless they just drop the already playing immediately.

Memorex · Post by **Memorex** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:15 pm

Question for the beta testers of this product:

What CPU are you running, and how much CPU does this consume when playing alot of notes with the pedal down?

I guess it also matters what sound card you have and what latency you're set for, because this also affects CPU consumption.

That's one of the reasons I still have a SBLive in my box along with my other sound card. I can play the 72MB version of the AKAI Splendid Grand, which sounds acceptable in a track, with no CPU hit or latency.

matto · Post by **matto** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:41 pm

benjamind wrote:Expression and fluid playability is the one thing that I cannot truly find in any sample library and to prove the point I can say, with absolute authority, that the overall expression possibilities even in a basic analog synth will absolutely SHIT all over your typical sample-playback based instrument.

Okay first of all the Garritan Strad 2.0 most certainly provides tons of expression and fluid playability, and it's based on samples.
Secondly, my clients demand realistic sounding orchestral and piano cues (among many other things), and they demand them NOW, not in five years. And they really don't appreciate it if I tell them an analog synth cue would shit all over the orchestral cue they want...

I'd love to be able to compete with Synful, Pianoteq, String Studio, this new VSTi etc etc, but I can't. The sound is simply not there yet. There have been great advances in physical modelling which should be applauded, and it's quite likely where things are heading.
But I can't make a living now based on some technology's future potential. That's precisely why these large "dinosaur" sample libraries still sell as well as they do.

matto

HamsterMadness · Post by **HamsterMadness** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:21 am

From what I heard currently around 7-13% at maximum on a 3 Ghz P4. This 7-13% includes things like sympathetic resonance.

Memorex wrote:Question for the beta testers of this product:

What CPU are you running, and how much CPU does this consume when playing alot of notes with the pedal down?

I guess it also matters what sound card you have and what latency you're set for, because this also affects CPU consumption.

That's one of the reasons I still have a SBLive in my box along with my other sound card. I can play the 72MB version of the AKAI Splendid Grand, which sounds acceptable in a track, with no CPU hit or latency.

A new piano in town