Violin emulation with subtractive synthesis : stunning.

[stefancrs]

They're actually talking about "KarmaFX Synth Modular", a modular freeware synthesizer:
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1694.html

Btw, did you get my mail?

[matthewjumps]

Elhardt yea i was talking about KarmaFX Synth - im certain i could recreate your patch in it to a reasonable degree, as you can add modules as you need them and wire them up however you want. it'd probably be a cpu monster

if you wouldnt mind posting some representation (graphics/text/whatever) of your signal path that would be really cool - if you want to keep it personal i understand

[Elhardt]

They're actually talking about "KarmaFX Synth Modular", a modular freeware synthesizer:
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1694.html

Btw, did you get my mail?

I see. Yet another softsynth. I think that makes about the millionth one. And with the same name as a Korg synth just to confuse the synth community.

I did get your email, but you'll probably get that before seeing this post.

-Elhardt

[pdxindy]

No, the G2 patches aren't available. For one thing, I only own the original G1 NM, not the G2. I don't think they'd even load on a G2. I also don't like having patches I've poured huge amounts of time, effort, and synth programming secrets into, flying around the internet with others taking credit for them, or using them in recordings before I do. That also goes for most of the Arturia MMV and Alesis Ion patches. Although I am going to post the MMV piano patch on the Nord portion of the electro-music.com site where others have tried but failed to synthesize a piano and they whine when they hear mine and think I won't share it with them. Short audio demo of it here.

http://home.att.net/~synth6/Arturia_MMV_Piano.mp3

some day maybe you will take all that knowledge and skill and make a synth and sell it to people who would like to have such lovely and expressive emulations as you have produced.

great work and inspiring to listen to!

[Elhardt]

Elhardt yea i was talking about KarmaFX Synth - im certain i could recreate your patch in it to a reasonable degree, as you can add modules as you need them and wire them up however you want. it'd probably be a cpu monster

if you wouldnt mind posting some representation (graphics/text/whatever) of your signal path that would be really cool - if you want to keep it personal i understand

I give a general description of it. I don't have graphics of it, nor can I currently even look at the patch, as my Nord editor is on my Win95 computer which is disconnected and the power supply temporarily removed.

You start with a sawtooth osc that is hardsync'd to a master osc. Scrapy bow slippage on note attacks is done by randomly modulating the sync'd osc by sampled/held noise going through a VCA shaped by and env. The amount of it is controlled by keyboard velocity. Vibrato speed and depth are controlled by another env which controls LFO rate and depth of modulation to I believe both oscs. The vibrato is delayed and increases in speed and depth when a note is played and also decreases in both of those as the note is held down for somewhat "expressivo" type of effect. Every key played on the keyboard triggers another s/h noise source which connects to the oscs inputs to give them small random pitch changes simulating a fretless instrument. The oscs go to a lowpass filter for general brightness control. The filter brightness and the patch loudness is controlled a little bit by velocity for individual note expression and also by expression pedal for doing swells and expression while the note is sustaining. The sound then goes through 4 short resonant delay lines in parallel that are all sweeping back and forth by their own LFOs all running at different freqs, which gives motion to the sound and a more stringy tone. There is noise involved somewhere in the patch but I can't remember where. Might even have a chorus unit or a parametric EQ stage or two, can't remember for sure. The sound goes through a voltage controlled VCA for loudness where the attack time is controlled by velocity for harder attacks to slower legato attacks. The sound then passes on to 42 24dB/oct bandpass filters in parallel that span a range of about 100Hz to probably about 12KHz and are set to a very high resonance. The outputs of all those filters are of course mixed together into the final sound. They're freqs and levels are adjusted to real violin samples to until the timbre closely matches. For that you'll need some sound editting software that can display sounds in the freq domain. CoolEdit Pro is what I use. You need to look at harmonic levels of a real violin and of your synthed one and see how closely they match, and go round and round until they finally come as close as you can get them. That's a somewhat general description, but there's probably still some things I can't remember.

And if I hadn't run out of DSP power on my Nord, the levels of all of those 42 bandpass filters would be modulated with 42 separate s/h noise sources through lag processors controlling VCAs to simulate the noisey harmonic amplitudes like in a real violin. That would also give you that noisey "air" or "wind" sound that somebody mentioned the Synful violin has.

So there you go. But synthesizing sounds isn't easily done by a description like that, but by understanding synthesis very deeply and also understanding what's going on when you listen to a sound like a violin and then emulating what you hear in that sound with a synth.

-Elhardt

[Elhardt]

some day maybe you will take all that knowledge and skill and make a synth and sell it to people who would like to have such lovely and expressive emulations as you have produced.

great work and inspiring to listen to!

Thanks for the compliments. But my sounds are really more interesting for the programming behind them than for the actual use of them. If somebody wants an expressively playable violin, they can get the Garritan Stradivari violin. They just came out with a cello too. Or there is always Synful, though some of their expression has to be added to your midi performance after you've already played it.

-Elhardt

[raja_hectic]

Thanks for the compliments. But my sounds are really more interesting for the programming behind them than for the actual use of them. If somebody wants an expressively playable violin, they can get the Garritan Stradivari violin. They just came out with a cello too. Or there is always Synful, though some of their expression has to be added to your midi performance after you've already played it.

-Elhardt

Okay...So, I've seen this thread for a bit now and am trying to figure out what your point is? You're not sharing your techniques; you're not selling anything? When did KVR become a talent showcase for a full of himself, "look what I can doer"? Do me a favor, when you want your ego stroked...Why not do it elsewhere? Contrary to what you may think, no true musician cares as much about the technology you're boasting about when they can achieve the same results with a slew of valiant "market" alternatives.

[diverdee]

I think that creating these sounds as an academic excercise almost, struggling to achieve that marvelous result as an end in itself is extremely wothwhile.
It's Elhardts talent, it's his tme - he can do what he wants without being judged by anybody.
You want the strings yourself?
Learn how to do it yourself & see how 'worthwhile' it feels once you've (not very likely) achieved it.
Why does there need to be a 'point' that you personally can understand?
the programming is a work of art in itself.
Ignore detractors Elhardt - there are plenty of us here extremely interested in what you have achieved (even though it's way beyond my comprehension really).

[raja_hectic]

And the jock-strap parade marches on...

[marvotron]

what interests me is knowing that something like this can be done, then which directions can you take it..to create instruments that you have never heard..to modulate in ways which the real thing or a sample based implementation cant achieve..

im not expecting Elhardt to share the actual patches..the descriptions are enough for the truly motivated.

as for what a 'true musician' cares for, whats a true musician?

[raja_hectic]

what interests me is knowing that something like this can be done, then which directions can you take it..to create instruments that you have never heard..to modulate in ways which the real thing or a sample based implementation cant achieve..

im not expecting Elhardt to share the actual patches..the descriptions are enough for the truly motivated.

as for what a 'true musician' cares for, whats a true musician?

What's funny to me is that, this guy has proven nothing! For all you know, he could be playing a violin through a filter and you are paying homage. Much like sheep being led to the slaughter. My question to him was, "what is your point"? Unless you can prove your methods (as far as I'm concerned), it is merely smoke and mirrors. That's the problem with the Internet...Everything posted is not fact. So, as far as I'm concerned he is guilty until proven innocent. I will drink the cool-aid if only after proof. But for now, he is just a "nobody" claiming to be "somebody special"...Clearly in need of attention. He's not even humble about his "alleged" accomplishments. He is downright arrogant assaulting the attempts of others with utmost bias based on what? A dream he had one night of becoming an on-line phenom with fans by the droves…

[P.T.]

raja_hectic, if you read the thread then you should know that the developer did not start this thread. Someone else started it to point out this fellows work.
Elhardt eventually came into it to answer questions about the patch.

[raja_hectic]

Thank you for clarifying but as I stated I did see this thread from the beginning. My response was to "Elhardt" directly, not to the author. However, this is the 3rd response I've gotten from someone other than my intended audience. I'm not interested in going back and forth. It was a post...That's it. Just my opinion. Simple. I'm entitled. Only "Elhardt" can convince me otherwise. Until then, your intervening is appreciated but not necessary. See you around the site.

[cheul]

I started the thread... and it definitely didn't go where I thought (I wished) it would go.
So yes Elhardt is a synthesis genius... but is it worth anything at all if he has no plans for his patches ? No selling, no sharing, no nothing, just a proof of concept and a few words to tell us, mere mortals, we're not worthy of his knowledge.
I'd expect someone this passionate about synthesis would want to make a stand in the music making business, such has going commercial with his hard work. But it seems the power of subtractive synthesis will remain the prerogative of a happy few...

[diverdee]

Personally I find it ...(can't actually think of the correct term) uplifting? enlightening? that someone is doing this just for the pure enjoyment (whether intellectual, emotional, spiritual or whatever) of doing it.
For sure it would be even more enlightening for someone with this kind of skill & obvious technical expertise & passion to maybe write a book or something outlining his theories, with maybe example patches one could create.
But I have the feeling that it would be a difficult read requiring a high standard of knowledge to start with & that the process itself involved a great deal of trial & error & patience.
Kudos to ~Elhardt - i'm just mightily impressed.