I was argueing with a friend tonight, about mixng techniques. He told me I must bus my tracks together, maybe a drums group, percussion, lead sounds and a bass group and then use a compressor to glue the sounds in the groups together. He is taking mastering and mixing "lessons" from somebody else where he perhaps had this info from, but he couldn't really explain how this happens, he was only talking about glueing, making things wide and stuff like that.
Now I'm really just getting into mixing, but at least I think I know how a compressor/limiter works, that you can influence the transients of a sound, the decay and perhaps somehow color the sound because of how he does this and through his electric components.
What I think he meant is, that if you apply the same eq, delay, reverb on a set of sounds in a group, they all get the same treatment soundwise and become somehow a bit more similar. But is it possible to glue sounds together?
bussing and using a compressor to glue sounds together?
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- KVRian
- 773 posts since 23 Apr, 2002 from audio/hamburg/germany/earth/space/unkown!
i guess this is what he meant with glueing. when you edit mixed/grouped sounds frequency wise (equing/filtering) , the result is similar to what you get when you would have filtered them one by one. but if you edit the dynamics of the grouped/mixed sounds at once (with a compressor or limiter or else) you'll get a different result form doing it on each sound at once.
i hope this help a bit. afaik the term glueing mostly used when you first mix sounds togeter and then compress/limit/dynamic process them when they mixed.
D3CK
i hope this help a bit. afaik the term glueing mostly used when you first mix sounds togeter and then compress/limit/dynamic process them when they mixed.
D3CK
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- KVRAF
- 5629 posts since 22 Sep, 2005
I'm not a pro engineer but before you group the parts (lets say drums). They should be mixed on individual tracks 1st then grouped to 1 drum track. You can eq all of the parts after this on the bus but at that point it may start to sound overdone.wazun wrote:...if you apply the same eq, delay, reverb on a set of sounds in a group, they all get the same treatment soundwise and become somehow a bit more similar.
Yes with compression you can create a sound that is tighter but you still have to take into considersation that you have to create the proper spacing to be able to distinguish different sounds.. I've had to learn this one the hard way!wazun wrote:But is it possible to glue sounds together?
L
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Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- 12517 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
This is like anything else when it comes to audio: it's not something you HAVE to do, but it's certainly something you CAN do. It CAN be a good thing, and it CAN destroy a mix. Experiment, and go from there.
I personally like compression bussing on overheads/room/pzm mics with BFD for a big rock sound, but wouldn't do the same with the kick and snare. I can see maybe throwing some acoustic rhthym guitars together, but I doubt I'd ever throw the lead on the track as well. I wouldn't bus a lead vocal, but will often do it with background vocals. Again, experiment, every mix will call for different techniques, and there's no one right way to mix something anyway, only what sounds good.
I personally like compression bussing on overheads/room/pzm mics with BFD for a big rock sound, but wouldn't do the same with the kick and snare. I can see maybe throwing some acoustic rhthym guitars together, but I doubt I'd ever throw the lead on the track as well. I wouldn't bus a lead vocal, but will often do it with background vocals. Again, experiment, every mix will call for different techniques, and there's no one right way to mix something anyway, only what sounds good.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 344 posts since 18 Mar, 2004 from DE
Me and my friend are very much into electronic music, so there isn't really some live played instruments where the dynamics of the sound have to be evened out. So any compression I use on for example a 808 kick or a synth bass is for chaning the sound (like an effect) and not to limit the dynamics, is this right? Does it make sense to group together percussion sounds that are different in volume to glue them together and make them tighter? Because the ones that get compressed are the loud ones and the other simply get louder because of not getting compressed (threshhold not catching) and only getting louder (because of the compressor's (auto)gain)? I'm a bit confused.
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Zaphod (giancarlo) Zaphod (giancarlo) https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=111268
- KVRAF
- 2610 posts since 23 Jun, 2006
You could try parallel compression
It's a common technique used a lot in the past and known somewhere as "los angeles" compression. I don't know the reason for the name.
Choose an high ratio, I say at least 1:4 till 1:20. Start using long attack times and fast release times. Tune attack and increase release times till you hear the sound is coming towards you. If you hear distortion you are wrong, increase attack again
Now add this heavy compressed group to the original source, keeping the original ones not compressed. In this case you are mixing the original transients (not compressed) with a compressed "sustained" track.
It's a common technique used a lot in the past and known somewhere as "los angeles" compression. I don't know the reason for the name.
Choose an high ratio, I say at least 1:4 till 1:20. Start using long attack times and fast release times. Tune attack and increase release times till you hear the sound is coming towards you. If you hear distortion you are wrong, increase attack again
Now add this heavy compressed group to the original source, keeping the original ones not compressed. In this case you are mixing the original transients (not compressed) with a compressed "sustained" track.
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- KVRist
- 382 posts since 6 Apr, 2005 from Fair NJ, the Garden State, US
Mixing to stem busses is pretty much the way every engineer I know works. Some things can go right to the 2-buss, but most things don't. In my mixes, nothing goes right to the 2-buss.
Grist for the glamour mill.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 344 posts since 18 Mar, 2004 from DE
I still don't get it how I can glue for example all the drum and percussion sounds together when compressing them together as a group. Do I work with a low threshold and a low ratio then? If so, is it important how low the threshold is, as long as it is very low (for example -20db or then -40db)?
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- KVRist
- 410 posts since 29 Jul, 2003
Slipperman, in his very informative mixing saga at http://marsh.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/287/0/0/, touched on the "glue", and if I remember right goes something like this:
Imagine a drum kit being recorded, with individual parts of the kit being recorded as well as the overall kit via the room and overhead mikes. The raw sound of the individual parts of the kit are all eq/compressed separately then bussed. The flavour (glue) of the sound of the whole kit comes in from the room/overheads and is added to the buss of the individual hits to tie the whole kit together. This final drum mix is then also eq/compressed.
The glue is most often going to come about from recorded sessions, and not from electronic sounds sourced from your PC, tho you can ovbiously fake it via parallel bussing/compression, as previously suggested.
I thoroughly recommend going thru Slipperman's thread; there is a lot of good stuff in there for the budding AE.
Imagine a drum kit being recorded, with individual parts of the kit being recorded as well as the overall kit via the room and overhead mikes. The raw sound of the individual parts of the kit are all eq/compressed separately then bussed. The flavour (glue) of the sound of the whole kit comes in from the room/overheads and is added to the buss of the individual hits to tie the whole kit together. This final drum mix is then also eq/compressed.
The glue is most often going to come about from recorded sessions, and not from electronic sounds sourced from your PC, tho you can ovbiously fake it via parallel bussing/compression, as previously suggested.
I thoroughly recommend going thru Slipperman's thread; there is a lot of good stuff in there for the budding AE.
Want to change your additive synth into an addictive one? You just need 5000 Cs!
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- KVRAF
- 2565 posts since 30 Mar, 2004 from Phoenix AZ USA
I am not a pro but I use TRacks compressor and limiter any time I want to "glue" stuff together.
I don't even push them, just laying them on the bus seems to "glue" things together.
I have other compressors that are great but don't have this gluing quality, at least not as potent as the TRacks.
Like with anything else in music, just try it and listen.
Let your ears be the judge.
If you hear gluing action and like it then that's all that maters.
I don't even push them, just laying them on the bus seems to "glue" things together.
I have other compressors that are great but don't have this gluing quality, at least not as potent as the TRacks.
Like with anything else in music, just try it and listen.
Let your ears be the judge.
If you hear gluing action and like it then that's all that maters.
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
If the individual elements in the drums mix are well controlled, my approach to bring some overall cohesion to a drum sound would be a to use deeper threshold/lower ratio settings on the buss compression. Generally, I like to let lots of attack through, and I try to get a release that pulls the post transient material up confidently but not too violently...a fat setting, you want the drums to have some smash, but you don't want the compressor working the natural feel out of the performance. As far as appropriate threshold/ratio settings go, that depends to a significant degree on the style of music, the drummer's performance, the particular compressor being used...and, of course, the engineer's taste, or lack thereof. Every compressor has a different response, so there is really nothing else for it but to experiment with what you have and see how you get on.wazun wrote:I still don't get it how I can glue for example all the drum and percussion sounds together when compressing them together as a group. Do I work with a low threshold and a low ratio then? If so, is it important how low the threshold is, as long as it is very low (for example -20db or then -40db)?
Number one fault I notice when it comes to drums buss compression...folks using overly fast attack times and/or using excessive ratios along with too much threshold. It is really easy to emasculate your drum sound with some well intended buss compression.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 344 posts since 18 Mar, 2004 from DE
So do I group tracks together and then compress the group to save time instead of compressing each track on its own? Because when I have a low threshold the end result should be the same, or not?
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- KVRian
- 520 posts since 11 Sep, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
No, compressing individually and on a sub-mix does NOT produce the same result.
If you have a sub-mix of - let's say - a kick and a hihat. If you compress these together the compression on the kickdrum will affect the hihat too. And *this* can give the feeling of those two sounds belonging or being "glued" together.
If you compress hihat and kick individually it will sound *totally* different. just try it out.
If you have a sub-mix of - let's say - a kick and a hihat. If you compress these together the compression on the kickdrum will affect the hihat too. And *this* can give the feeling of those two sounds belonging or being "glued" together.
If you compress hihat and kick individually it will sound *totally* different. just try it out.
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- KVRist
- 382 posts since 6 Apr, 2005 from Fair NJ, the Garden State, US
Kilroy's dead right, tho I think a lot of mixes REALLY lose their punch at mastering. It's regrettable in some ways, but I find myself "mixing to master" -- snare way too loud and cracky, knowing it's going to get knocked down in mastering. Anyhow . . .
I compress a lot of stuff, including drums, at every stage -- tracking, on the track, on the submix buss, and the 2-buss. It really depends on the instrument and what I'm going for, but let's say I want a sort of classic DBX sound on the snare. I'll track it thru a dbx comp, maybe cutting 5db on the transients with a fairly deep threshold and a fairly low ratio and whatever attack/release the DBX uses. Then maybe I find on the track that the transients are too hot, so I use a fast compressor to pull down a couple db with a high threshold and fast attack. Now that goes to the drum buss, where it meets the rest of the kit. Maybe I think there's not enough room sound, so I go deep with a slow attack and deep threshold like kilroy's describing. Or, more rarely, I'll find the whole buss too punchy, and just go after the transients. On the master buss, I pretty much only go with slow attack, and often just have the needle quivering.
I'm not alone in thinking that compression is like salt, best added along the way. If you do all your cooking and then dump on the salt at the end, it's not going to taste right.
I compress a lot of stuff, including drums, at every stage -- tracking, on the track, on the submix buss, and the 2-buss. It really depends on the instrument and what I'm going for, but let's say I want a sort of classic DBX sound on the snare. I'll track it thru a dbx comp, maybe cutting 5db on the transients with a fairly deep threshold and a fairly low ratio and whatever attack/release the DBX uses. Then maybe I find on the track that the transients are too hot, so I use a fast compressor to pull down a couple db with a high threshold and fast attack. Now that goes to the drum buss, where it meets the rest of the kit. Maybe I think there's not enough room sound, so I go deep with a slow attack and deep threshold like kilroy's describing. Or, more rarely, I'll find the whole buss too punchy, and just go after the transients. On the master buss, I pretty much only go with slow attack, and often just have the needle quivering.
I'm not alone in thinking that compression is like salt, best added along the way. If you do all your cooking and then dump on the salt at the end, it's not going to taste right.
Grist for the glamour mill.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 344 posts since 18 Mar, 2004 from DE
When I set the threshold very very low ( perhaps -70db or lower), is this the same as just lowering the volume, because anything gets compressed a bit? How do I judge how low to set the threshold when I want make it fit better in the mix?