how to sample upright piano?

[Watto]

Hi guys,

I'm collaborating with koolkeys on sampling my upright piano - I'm really happy with my piano sound, and so would like to use it live etc.

Anyway, I'm the one who has to record the samples, obviously, so I'm wondering what the easiest way to do this is? Do I use a host or a wave editor, or is there something specifically designed to do it?

koolkeys is pretty keen to not do any looping of the samples, so that it decays naturally - is that a realistic goal?

Cheers in advance!

Watto

[thecontrolcentre]

You might find this helpful ... it explains how he recorded his excellent JRhodes soundfont.

[Watto]

Thanks very much, mate - checking it out now!

[thecontrolcentre]

I sampled an upright piano myself a few years ago. It was a lot of work, and I didn't do any velocity layers. I just recorded every 3rd note, using a Tascam 244 and sampled and mapped them out later. The samples are part of the free PianoPack on my website.

[deastman]

I wish there were an easy way of automating the sampling for multiple velocity layers. My parents have a beautiful 1928 Steinway B grand piano, and I'd love to make a free sample set of it. Thing is, I'm not going to bother doing a half-assed job of it, attempting to record a bunch of velocity layers by hand.

I remember when my parents were shopping for pianos, they mentioned that the serious stores have something called a "beater" which will sit on top of the keyboard and physically hammer on every key for a while to test for problems. If there was something like that which could be controlled from the computer and strike the keys with varying velocity values, I'd be set! Of course, I'm sure such a device, if it already exists, costs a lot of money...

[Watto]

Yes, it's a pain in the arse so far

[deaf dunderkwac]

and it really depends on the piano...
some sound better recorded with the mics facing th soundboard at the rear, some sound better with the mics facing the strings at the to and some sound better at the bottom.
Ive had two studio uprights I used to record regularly and they were both very different.
At a studio I worked at they had a Fischer upright which sounded great no matter how it was mic'ed (in retrospect)(since it was they only piano they had I always wished for a different one but since that time I became experienced with all the major types and found myself wishing they sounded as good as the Fischer)(except the Bossendoffer, which, of course, sounds like a Bossendoffer if I remotely go the spelling right)
two to three mics (or more) was my usual method, with the mics spread across the stereo hard-panned left (lom strings) to right(high strings)

don't know if that's useful to you but I'm bored with just reading

[Watto]

I've got a bit of an unorthodox micing method - both mics on one bar (one stand), pretty much in the middle of the BACK of the piano, facing about 45 degrees outwards (meaning if you look down the back of the piano from the top, they form an upside down V). Funnily enough, when the engineer who mixed my album (very fussy bugger) came over, he said "you mic them like THAT??!!", but when he heard the results, he said not to change it

Besides which, I don't mind if it sounds unique, as there's not much point in doing it otherwise.

I'm just having trouble with the pianissimo - it's very hard to get it at exactly the same volume

[deaf dunderkwac]

it's the pianissimo that is the issue when placing microphones. But since you already started with the mic configuration (and yes I do know how much work you've already accomplished and I wouldn't start over) I would, however, come to the conclusion that this is whats charming about different pianos and just live with the different levels. Barring that, you could normalize to a set level (you don't always have to normalize to almost 0dB )

Cheers Watto...

[metamorphosis]

You could follow my technique:
depends on the room, but:
one stereo condenser at top just inside the opened piano, pointing downwards towards strings,
one mono condenser either side of player, .5m away from keys, pointed at just above the keys at 1.6m metres offthe ground.
one dynamic mike dropped behind at back, facing inwards, resting on floor (low mids).
is a good starting point-
Cheers,
M@

[Watto]

it's the pianissimo that is the issue when placing microphones. But since you already started with the mic configuration (and yes I do know how much work you've already accomplished and I wouldn't start over) I would, however, come to the conclusion that this is whats charming about different pianos and just live with the different levels. Barring that, you could normalize to a set level (you don't always have to normalize to almost 0dB )

Cheers Watto...

Thanks for all the tips, mate! I was just contemplating the normalizing when I read your post

Btw, what's your vibe on how many keys and velocity layers, and how much looping? I'm thinking we'll come up with a few versions (although that's up to koolkeys).

[Watto]

You could follow my technique:
M@

G'day mate,

Well, as I said, I'm already pretty happy with the sound I'm getting, and I'm not really going for perfect anyway, as perfect annoys me, frankly.

Still, I've noted your method, and will try it one of these days - cheers!

Watto

[93143]

I recorded an upright a while back. Four velocity layers chromatic, 24/44, full natural decay, with noises and releases; I'm currently trying to cut and prepare all the samples in my free time. I'm using Wavelab Lite (same program I recorded into) to trim all the files manually, it's taken over a year, and I'm really glad I don't have to loop anything.

I used two mics in a loose XY (±45º) near-coincident configuration in front of the piano with the case shut (as this is how it is normally played and heard). The distance between the diaphragms was maybe 8 cm or so, allowing for better mono compatibility than ORTF or anything wider. I draped the area around the piano with blankets to get the dry sound.

I had very good mics & preamp (cost me $200 to rent for the weekend), so recording pianissimo with the case shut didn't result in any problems Audition's denoiser couldn't fix...

I recorded the layers manually. In general I think it works okay if you're going to use any kind of normalization technique, but large variations can be noticeable unless you map and program skillfully (ie: vary the layer transitions key-to-key and use velocity-sensitive lowpass filtering). My pp middle C is hilarious - I recently used PLParEQ3 (phase linear and clean, so I can just crossfade/mix between processed and unprocessed) to remove a water drip from the bucket under the sink - the drip was louder than the actual note...

Of course, not all the notes are the same volume on the real piano - it hasn't been maintained in decades. The C# two octaves above middle has to be pushed fairly hard to sound at all...

[deaf dunderkwac]

it's the pianissimo that is the issue when placing microphones. But since you already started with the mic configuration (and yes I do know how much work you've already accomplished and I wouldn't start over) I would, however, come to the conclusion that this is whats charming about different pianos and just live with the different levels. Barring that, you could normalize to a set level (you don't always have to normalize to almost 0dB )

Cheers Watto...

Thanks for all the tips, mate! I was just contemplating the normalizing when I read your post

Btw, what's your vibe on how many keys and velocity layers, and how much looping? I'm thinking we'll come up with a few versions (although that's up to koolkeys).

sorry... it's been an off/on day here at the dunderkwac household...

I haven't ever made a looped version of a piano or guitar so I'm a bit out of my league offering any advice.

I'm somewhat in agreement with 93143 except what I end up using (as opposed to making) is only 3 (max- most the time only 2) velocity layers and I only use the 'whole sound' as my host is very gracious about abbreviating notes.
I'm thinking I prefer the unlooped pianos far more than the older looped versions.

But then again, I can't use the really big pianos on the mighty Celeron because of memory limitations (you'd think 1/2 a gig would be enough ) so I re-make those pianos with my host's multi-sampler,using only the notes in the song thus negating the need for teh biggy pianos

heh...I'm wandering away from your question... sorry.

[Watto]

All good info - thanks, boys!