Pro Tools = Rip Off

[thelizard]

I'll put it out there like this... if you're an electronic musician, it's very easy to tear apart Pro Tools. However, I have to say that there is nothing like Pro Tools for recording multiple tracks at once and cleaning them up afterwards...
It IS a damn shame about the upgrades costing so much, especially the Music Production Toolkit (or whatever it's called)... I'm buying the 002 Rack after working with Pro Tools in a recording class here at school, and I really don't want to pay that extra money... however, the hardware is beautiful, and the studio to studio transfer is absolutely essential.

P.S. Many people (myself included) have two computers for electronic music with Pro Tools. My laptop is my VST/electronic production machine, which is outputted into the desktop. Pro Tools may semi-suck for MIDI, but there are plenty of workarounds.

[skipkent]

Just going to play Devil's advocate for a second, correct me if I'm out in left field (not a ProTools owner/user)...

Protools M powered is available for $150-$300, correct?

A production toolkit enabling extra tracks and plugins and what-all is available for $500, correct?

The latest version of Cubase costs 6-$900, correct?

The price differential doesn't seem that wide, but rather very much in line with Cubase, Logic, Samplitude and others.

So what's the fuss? Just playing with ideas here, please don't shoot!

; )

Also, as for click tracks and tempo changes accross hosts (Tracktion -> PT), why not simply render a midi click track on Tracktion along with all your other tracks? Bring that to the studio as well and forget about the timeline, although it probably won't be difficult for them at all to synch up their PT timeline using the beats on the click track as a guide.

Just a thought.

[Vegetarian]

It is a bit pricey but you can get a complete PT system much cheaper than usual these days (Mbox 2 Mini), and some of the plugins that come with it are really quite good (Bomb Factory's plugs, for instance).
However if you've got no interest in recording live sound or doing post-production there's probably something else you'd prefer.

[Toxikator]

I'll put it out there like this... if you're an electronic musician, it's very easy to tear apart Pro Tools. However, I have to say that there is nothing like Pro Tools for recording multiple tracks at once and cleaning them up afterwards...

I disagree. I think most hosts worth their salt these days offer highly competent audio editing features.

I'm curious, though, what you're doing in PT that most other hosts can't do (and it's not some sort of sarcastic attack, I'd really like to know)

I think PT's real shine comes from it's hardware integration, which makes it feel very much like mixing on a big desk, which is why so many outfits choose it as an audio editing suite (and that's not a bad thing)

[theshaggyfreak]

I'm curious, though, what you're doing in PT that most other hosts can't do (and it's not some sort of sarcastic attack, I'd really like to know)

For me I chose Pro Tools over other software for a lot of little reasons rather than any one big reason. I've tried all of the other big guys and some of the little ones and I just never felt very comfortable working with them. I liked Tracktion but I felt it was lacking in a lot of things that drove me crazy over time.

I like the work flow of Pro Tools and it tends to match the way that I do things. I feel that the interface is clean but it did take me a long time to get used to all the keyboard shortcuts one needs to know to make things a lot quicker. I don't feel that PT can do something that other programs can't. It's all about what works for me. PT 7.3 introduced a lot of little enhancements that really improve work flow for me in my ways. Hell, being able to mount HFS drives was worth the price of the upgrade by itself.


I like that Digidesign moves along a little slower than other companies with implementing different things instead of trying to make things as flashy (the latest and greatest stuff) to the buyer as possible. I hate having to relearn a program after every update with some of the other software that I've tried.

Another thing that makes me go with Pro Tools is the portability aspect. I had a project that I did in Tracktion where I recorded a local band. Once all was said and done with tracking, they took everything to a larger studio for mixing. I bounced each track to a single wav file and I thought that it would make things easy so that it could be imported on their Pro Tools system. While it wasn't a hugely difficult process, it did take a bit of extra time to set things up and that cost the band some extra time on their bill. Had the session come to them already in Pro Tools, it would have been a snap for the set up at the other studio.

So many people cry about ADC. Yeah, I wish we had it but it doesn't take me that long to do a little nudge here and there when necessary to compensate. I just don't sweat it and do what I need to do to complete the project.

Yes, Pro Tools is a lot more picky about what hardware it will run on computer wise. Digidesign doesn't hide that fact at all. I've never had a problem getting it to work as I always read the compatibility list before I purchase anything. I do my home work but it does help that I worked in IT for about 10 years. Many people don't know how to set up or maintain an extremely stable system. Again, that's something else that Pro Tools is very picky about.

I've said this plenty of times in the past but I find it pointless to argue over which DAW is better and which ones suck. They all record and edit audio. You can make good or bad music with any of them. What it comes down to is who sits in front of the machine to operate it. Pro Tools is not for everyone and I wouldn't recommends it to a beginner. It works for me, though, and that's what matters.

Cubase, Nuendo, Tracktion, FL Studio, Live, Logic, etc...they're all programs that can do the job. What will do the job for you? That's for you to decide. Sure, having a big expensive mixing console would be great to go with it all but you can still record music with a little Behringer mixer or an Audio Buddy. It's all about who's using the equipment. I think people get so wrapped up in the technology that they forget that making music is the goal we're all trying to achieve.

[whyterabbyt]

I've said this plenty of times in the past but I find it pointless to argue over which DAW is better and which ones suck. They all record and edit audio. You can make good or bad music with any of them. What it comes down to is who sits in front of the machine to operate it.

Heretic. You dont belong here. Shoo!

[Toxikator]

@theshaggyfreak: perfectly valid. There's a difference between "it does something no other host does" and "it does something in a way no other host does"

I'm all for people adapting to their own workflow. I'd just like to know if there's some grand editing feature I missed out on.

[whyterabbyt]

I'm all for people adapting to their own workflow. I'd just like to know if there's some grand editing feature I missed out on.

Ive always found, that for audio editing/ (and a lot of audio based composition), PT 'just works'. Nothing grand, it just does what it says on the tin.

[theshaggyfreak]

@theshaggyfreak: perfectly valid. There's a difference between "it does something no other host does" and "it does something in a way no other host does"

I'm all for people adapting to their own workflow. I'd just like to know if there's some grand editing feature I missed out on.

Probably not. There are tons of Pro Tools evangelists. It's the same with Macs and tons of other things. Between working in IT for 10 years and now working in recording, I've met quite a few people that can argue on why the like what they do. In most valid cases, people give reasons about why something works for 'them'. It's a personal thing.

The only thing that is hard to argue is that Pro Tools is pretty much the industry standard for audio. I've found it in more studios than any other DAW but that doesn't mean other 'pros' don't use other programs. Hell, Pro Tools isn't the only program I use. I get quite a bit of use out of Ableton Live and Reason (although this isn't a DAW) as well.

I tend to ignore people that go on that Pro Tools sucks or Reason sucks because I heard that so often. *Shrug* They work for me and that's what makes me happy. Why do other people care so much about the software I use?

[hasenbraten]

I think ist just the Speed and Workflow with wich one can cut and edit recorded Audio in PT that makes the difference.
I always disliked the whole concept of the Program but when I first had to work with it it was great. Even without knowing the shortcuts I was as fast as with Peak or Wavelab.

[coreydavid]

I once tried protools Free a long time ago when I was still running Win98. It crashed my PC. Promised myself I would never try it again. Now Im all FLS6 + Audition 2. Does everything I need it to do, has practically all of the features PT has, and its a lot cheaper. My DAW has really never had any hardware issues (thank god), so Im happy with it. As many here mentioned, the only reason I see to go PT is to have compatibility with big studios. But again, I can export my wave files to a DVD and take them to a studio. Wouldnt that be the same thing?

I do a bit of part time editing for small studio (but with some very large customers). You can do exactly as you say (render to wav) but it saves clients money if you have the project saved as a native format (whether DP, PT, Logic or whatever). We don't do any mastering, we send it out. A lot of people show up with CDs full of sounds that they want arranged. It takes a lot of time just wandering around their CDs and pulling parts together. Having a project that you can open and look at saves a ton of time. Some people just show up with a dog-eared notebook and a CD, some are tape, some recorded to DV cameras. If you plan on working with a studio, ask them what software they have. Chances are that they use PT.

My question is that I see a lot of people using FLStudio and Audition. Why? What is it about that combo that makes it so popular.

Cheers.

[theshaggyfreak]

I think ist just the Speed and Workflow with wich one can cut and edit recorded Audio in PT that makes the difference.
I always disliked the whole concept of the Program but when I first had to work with it it was great. Even without knowing the shortcuts I was as fast as with Peak or Wavelab.

That's what really got me. I originally got Pro Tools after I had terrible luck with a MOTU 828mkII. After sending the thing back to MOTU 2 times within a year of owning it, I was looking to take my cash somewhere else. So, I sold the 828mkII (loosing about $200 since I sold it for $550) and got myself an 002R since it had the I/O I was looking for. I was glad to find out that mine was made after they finally fixed the dreaded power harness issue and that I wouldn't be having that problem. I got myself a tutorial video CD that explained a lot of the editing features and I was blown away. It was exactly what I was looking for when I thought about what I would like in a DAW. It just made sense to me.

Now that 7.3 is out, I'm excited that I no longer need to buy an extra program to be able to mount my HFS drives from my Mac to my PC. I'm currently in the process of switching over to all Macs (that's another story completely) and it's making my job so much easier. Now I can take mixes that I recorded with my powerbook and plug the external drive into my desktop to do the final work. It saved me time from having to copy gigs of material across the network and it saved me from having to spend extra money on a separate program to mount the drive. ...I'm also really digging the colored channel strips that we can have now.

It works for me.

Coreydavid...I found out the hard way about what you're talking about. I learned my lesson in a big way.

[Squish]

Can you use RAID drives with Pro Tools LE? I thought you couldn't but that may have changed. I know...Duc, but you all are so much nicer here!

[theshaggyfreak]

Can you use RAID drives with Pro Tools LE? I thought you couldn't but that may have changed. I know...Duc, but you all are so much nicer here!

It's always strongly suggested to disable RAID with using Pro Tools. I personally don't see the need for RAID on a DAW machine. I have a separate server for backing things up that does that sorta thing.

[skipkent]

I'm intrigued by the lure of ProTools, but the lack of delay compensation is a deal killer for me. There's just no excuse for it, save, perhaps, as enticing investment copy for the shareholders of Digidesign. I could see, though, buying a cheap version someday with a workflow something like this:

1. All my tracking in Tracktion
2. Assuming I may want the outside assistance of a pro studio, I'll import/tweak/adjust my Tracktion tracks into protools myself and then bring the PT project to the studio to save on time and hassle.

That said, I think more studios will be finding it worth their while to become versed in a number of DAW's and not just PT. I think that the onus is on them, if they want my business, to say, "Tracktion? We've got that, no problem. Just bring in your project and we'll hit the ground running." Same with Cubase, Logic, Samplitude, whatever.

Clearly not all studios will rise to this, but those that do should advertise this aspect, and they will find an enthusiastic sub-group of customers responding. This is a strategic area where some smaller studios could outshine the larger ones.