KVR Audio

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:00 pm

True.

I live just outside Nashville, understand, so I'm sort of backwatered as far as production techniques. Over in Europe, you're not too hard-pressed to find a studio running Nuendo instead of PT. Over here, the biggest studios don't even HAVE PT, just a console, a couple tape reels, and maybe a hardware digital recorder.

PT is a step forward for Nashville. And it's only there because a guy heard from a guy who heard from a guy that you can totally do edits on a Mac and it sounds right dandy.

Also the college round here is pumping out like 200 PT-loving pseudoexperts every year. Damn saturated market.

My point is that, as more people become indoctrinated into the world of true digital editing for musical (and not just film/media) applications, the PT stranglehold will fail. Not that PT won't remain a worthwhile solution, as it probably will, but it'll have to expand its features beyond those of a mouse-controlled tape reel.

HHaynes · Post by **HHaynes** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:15 pm

GreyLion wrote:Oh, no, Beat Detective does so much more. It's not a beat slicer. It's a beat finder. I use it to freely play in an audio track, then detect the transients, write an evolving tempo map, and make the tempo track in the sequencer automatically conform to my playing. Not vice versa, as other sequencers do.

OK - I've had just about enough of the PT buzz-work-bingo... Cubase has long had this feature built into it - just not with the "shiny" name that everyone can bandy about after they graduate from Full Sail.

http://www.steinbergusers.com/vids/XML_ ... ideos.html

Sorry, there's no demo - no dongle - just a series of videos showing how the application actually works in the hands of someone who actually knows *how* it works. Check out the video on Audiowarp, Audiowarp Hitpoints, and Timewarp. (you'll need to scroll down in the selection window) These videos demonstrate several ways to map tempo to audio, and conversely, map audio to tempo - and yes, Virginia, there is a way to extract audio tempo to a MIDI quantize groove map. It's really quick and easy, and is a huge workflow advantage not only for music projects, but has saved my bacon on several occasions when needing to change a music cue's timing in a film score.

So, take care to do a little bit more than just regurgitating Digi-fish-food about the "exclusivity" of their features.

And while we're at it, anyone who wants to get in and out of PT (plus a dozen other file formats) should check out Cui Bono Soft's EDL Convert. It's the bomb, half the price of DigiTranslator, and actually works. Of course, you actually have to use your brain a little bit to use it - and for some PT-drones that's not an option, but I digress.

If you want to stay with Pro Tools - stay with Pro Tools - I have no problem with that. Just don't prance around discussion forums like they're "the only solution" for your favorite pet feature. You're just playing into the hands of people whose sole aim is to make money off of the assumption that you won't check out the facts and do your own homework.

GreyLion · Post by **GreyLion** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:22 pm

FWIW, despite my sounding fanboy'ish in this thread, I pretty much agree with things you and MattmaN have written. And I'm no ninja in any of these apps. I did check quite a few forums on the beat detection thing, a year ago, and saw a lot of bitching that the similar faciitlies in Sonar 5 and Cubase SX3 weren't very functional and were difficult to use. And they were always restricted to the top-of-the-line version.

An important point for me is that I could get this functionality for $150, and it works great. With the other ones, I'd be spending $400 - $500.

I just hit the vid link you posted, and it looks like TimeWarp and AudioWarp may have the functionality we're talking about, though TimeWarp doesn't seem to generate or connect to hitpoints. It looks like you have to manually walk through the song, beat by beat, in order to generate the tempo map.

TBH, in my experience, you have to manually tweak a lot of the detected hitpoints in M-Powered, also, in order to get a good tempo map.

The core truth in many of these discussions, which so often get so heated, is that you can get good results in lots of sequencer/hosts, if you put in the time and energy to learn them properly. From the very little I've read, Sonar's AudioSnap may rock, for instance. Feature sets are converging.

And that wasn't true when I first started monkeying with this stuff around 2001. YOu can get an extremely powerful host these days, with high-level functionality, for a fifth of what it used to cost back then. And it's why, IMHO, Digi is going to have to change their monopoly-attitude ways to survive in the future.

GreyLion · Post by **GreyLion** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:25 pm

Uh... Never been to Full Sail, either, FWIW.

From looking at the ads, it seems a very expensive waste of money. Churning out 'shiny' grads with almost no chance of getting hired on as engineers.

theshaggyfreak · Post by **theshaggyfreak** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:31 pm

GreyLion wrote:Uh... Never been to Full Sail, either, FWIW.

From looking at the ads, it seems a very expensive waste of money. Churning out 'shiny' grads with almost no chance of getting hired on as engineers.

I realized a LONG time ago that I'm not going to get rich doing what I'm doing. Luckily I have wife with a very nice career as an electrical engineer. I took some classes at the local community college and I did learn a thing or two with both analog and digital equipment. I think these big expensive schools can teach you a lot but most people have a false sense of security about their job situation once their time is completed there. Nothing beats the experience of working out in the industry doing whatever it is that you can. Hell, I'm in the process of getting involved with community theater to work with some live sound.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:13 pm

I'm not in full sail, but guess what my Major is?

You guys make life sound terrible

GreyLion · Post by **GreyLion** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:33 pm

Life is Sweet!

But, from everything I read, life as a recording engineer these days is..... challenging...

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:37 pm

Not if you own an SSL console

People seem to be under the impression that the recording industry is dying because you no longer need $80,000 worth of equipment to cut a record.

The tools are all available to fix your car at home, too, but that doesn't stop automotive engineers from making a living.

There will always be a place for audio engineers, IMO.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:46 pm

Tox the industry has changed and it's not easy...note I didn't say dying. The good jobs are very hard to get....it's not a market that's flooded with good paying jobs at entry level...and yes it doesn't matter what school you go to, when you graduate you are entry level. You have to be willing to really start at the bottom. Back when I still worked at mars I had a real good friend that went to full sail, note he was working at mars. He was desperate for a real engineering job whether it be live or studio. It's a very hard field to break into and it can be equally hard to maintain longevity in a position. Some do rise to the top and do very well, but many don't.

GreyLion · Post by **GreyLion** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:56 pm

What Hink says is true, and I think has always largely been true in most, if not all creative fields. It's hard to make a living at creativity. But technology is making it even harder, especially at the mid-level, by putting strong creative tools in the hands of people who would otherwise not be able to make the first step on their own, and would need mid-level help otherwise.

Advancing technology that raises the floor on functionality and makes it so people can do 'good enough' for much cheaper, does kill the high end.

And the net makes it so much easier to make and distribute things outside the old channels.

On the creative part -- I have lots of friends who write for a living, very skilled sf authors, and most of them are really, really struggling, as s result of the consolidaiton in the publishing and book-selling industries. Unless you're a best-seller type of writer, you're gonna have a hard time.

Same thing with music, from what I read. If your first or second album doesn't go platinum, you better have a good MySpace page set up to sell the rest of your career from...

thelizard · Post by **thelizard** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:06 pm

yeah hahah not Full Sail. Just an ordinary college freshman. Funny you mention Nashville, Toxik... that's where I'm at right now. It pretty much goes with what you said, Toxik. So many studios here have PT... I was asked by my boss to purchase PT so that I could get more jobs around here (remixing/editing).

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:32 pm

I go to MTSU, which I regret to say is saturating the market with entry-level engineers like me.

What I wonder is why Engineering is considered a "creative" profession; I mean, yes it's a part of the music scene but you're not paid for your creativity, you're paid for your expertise/experience. The engineer's job is to operate the equipment and achieve the best sound...

I'm willing to struggle in the beginning, I have confidence that I can make a living making noise.

theshaggyfreak · Post by **theshaggyfreak** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:37 pm

Most of the people I know like myself end up wearing a ton of different hates besides being an engineer. That's why I also do a little bit of web design, write music, teach others to use home studio equipment, mix live sound or anything else that I can get my hands into. I would have stayed in the IT industry if I wanted to be making a lot of money. I'm enjoying doing what I love even if the wages are small.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:48 pm

I can engineer/record/mix, I'm learning to master (though there's a gear curve with that, too), I can design and sell sounds (which I've started with FLipEXP, though that's nonprofit, but will continue if it does well), I can edit and score sound for film, and TBH live sound doesn't sound much harder than mixing a record, it's just mike placement and test mixing.

I'm not above day-jobbing if that's what it takes, but I'd love to start up a studio in conjunction with one of several up-and-coming labels in the area, there's money in collaboration if you can provide production insight as well as engineering skill.

ugo · Post by **ugo** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:57 pm

GreyLion wrote:FWIW, despite my sounding fanboy'ish in this thread, I pretty much agree with things you and MattmaN have written. And I'm no ninja in any of these apps. I did check quite a few forums on the beat detection thing, a year ago, and saw a lot of bitching that the similar faciitlies in Sonar 5 and Cubase SX3 weren't very functional and were difficult to use. And they were always restricted to the top-of-the-line version.

hitpoint detection and audiowarp exist in cubase SL3, which is considerabily less expensive than SX. i've only started messing with that functionality recently (been recording my bass more) and it seems to work well.

Pro Tools = Rip Off