KVR Audio

No name · Post by **No name** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:04 am

I need help yet again! Well, my (re)journey into music theory has proved insightful, but yet again I find myself stuck on one thing, time signatures.

Maybe i'm too conditioned to the 4/4 time, which is why i'm having a hell of a time grasping the concept of things like 9/8 time and such. I understand what time signatures themselves mean, such as the fact that 4/4 means 4 bars/single notes. I need some help in explaining this, and if anyone wishes to take any extra steps, perhaps some audio examples of "unusual" times. Thanks.

By the way, as for the mods or whoever has the power to create new sub forums, perhaps a "music theory" sub forum would be a decent idea? It could only lead to more organization and learning!

Thanks.

XLN Audio · Post by **XLN Audio** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:09 am

time signature shows the number of notes of a certain length, within one bar. 4/4 means that one bar is made up of 4 quarter notes.

/Lars

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:11 am

Some old threads on the subject:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=111240
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 79&start=0

If it's not for you then just forget about it..

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:33 am

Wiki's pretty good on compound meter
As (as ever) is Dolmetsch

No name · Post by **No name** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:08 am

Nevermind, I do get the whole concept. My issue is more with the length of each particular meters. Let us take 9/8 for instance. I haven't grasped the whole meter thing as much as i'd like to. I haven't allowed myself enough time to absorb this. Thanks for the help though, i'll see if I can get this down.

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:13 am

time signatures are always:

X/Y

where Y is the beat unit (16 = 16th note, 8 = 8th note, 4 = quarter note, etc.) and X is the number of beat units in a bar.

so 3/8 means 3 8th notes in a bar. 5/16 means 5 16th notes. usw.

bars can be subdivided in different ways. for example, a 6/8 bar could be subdivided into the following groupings of 8th notes: 2-2-2, 3-3, 1-2-2-1, 2-1-1-2, etc. in each of these cases, the first 8th note of the grouping would be emphasized and the others not.

SARcazm · Post by **SARcazm** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:58 am

As Rachmiel says, the way to use unusual time sigs is subdivision.

For example, to get a nice four over three feel use a 12/8 time sig, and put a kick drum on each 3 1/8th note (1,4,7,10). Then put something else (snare, whatever) on each 4 1/8th note (1,5,9), and play it back. You should hear the kick sound like your normal 4/4 with the snare playing a triplet over it.

Odd time sigs (like 5/4, 7/8 etc) end up sounding a bit rushed, and are great for addding a bit of spice to a track, but bear in mind they are not easy to dance to, so beware your genre.

Probably the most famous 5/4 sig example is Take Five by Brubek, tho he adds a twist to it by emphasizing off beats in the first 3 beats, before hitting 4 and 5. Anyway take a listen to that for some ideas.

Time sigs are great fun to play around with. Take 7/8. Say out loud 1 thru 7 but accent, by tapping your foot, the 1 and 4 (ONE two three FOUR five six seven) and repeat it a few times to get the feel. Now do the same but accent the 1 and 5 (ONE two three four FIVE six seven). See how you get a totally different rhythmic feel by changing the accent? Finally do one bar with 1 and 4 and the next with 1 and 5 and repeat those two bars and you got yourself a cool little groove going.

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:08 am

You already know the techhy part of this, you need to hear and FEEL it. I don't have any readily avaialble samples for you, but I'm SURE some of the guys around here have song examples that are NOT 4/4. Like a waltz is typically 3/4 timing. One, two three, One, two three, emphasis on the One.

Devon

herodotus · Post by **herodotus** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:25 am

No name wrote:I need help yet again! Well, my (re)journey into music theory has proved insightful, but yet again I find myself stuck on one thing, time signatures.

Maybe i'm too conditioned to the 4/4 time, which is why i'm having a hell of a time grasping the concept of things like 9/8 time and such. I understand what time signatures themselves mean, such as the fact that 4/4 means 4 bars/single notes. I need some help in explaining this, and if anyone wishes to take any extra steps, perhaps some audio examples of "unusual" times.

Excuse the inherent self promotion, but:

9/8 time: http://www.realmusicmedia.com/bulgarian_goat_tarnce.mp3

10/8 time: http://www.realmusicmedia.com/club_hentai.mp3

7/8 time: http://www.realmusicmedia.com/endangere ... _demo3.mp3

6/8 time: http://www.realmusicmedia.com/68_jam_in_a.mp3

I wish I could say something useful, but every time I try to it ends up running to 10,000 words and eventually gets deleted rather than submitted.

So I will just bypass that whole process.

By the way, as for the mods or whoever has the power to create new sub forums, perhaps a "music theory" sub forum would be a decent idea? It could only lead to more organization and learning!

Thanks.

Good Idea!

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:26 am

Like I said, someone one the forum should have some examples to listen to...

Devon

bluedad · Post by **bluedad** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:25 am

I know just how you feel, no name. I know the theory; I've taken classes, read books..so I understand it, I just don't feel it. Thanks to SARcazm for the counting examples, and herodotus for the mp3's.

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:23 am

one of the main reasons you don't feel it is that IT (non-4/4 meters) is pretty much taboo in all forms of popular music, especially groove-based dance and idm.

thelizard · Post by **thelizard** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:25 am

My way of doing it? Count everything you listen to. Everything. Listen to all kinds of music and start developing feels based on sigs. Jazz is excellent, along with bands like The Dismemberment Plan and Spoon. Don't go off counting Prog-Metal or anything like that quite yet... first listen to how people make pop melodies with time signatures.

THE NUMBER ONE RULE however is this: the time signature does not make the melody. The melody makes the time signature (i.e. don't go off thinking "Hey I really want do change this into a sudden 7/8 + 5/8 breakdown." Instead, do what's natural).

So speaketh a drummer.

cimoc · Post by **cimoc** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:56 am

The only way to really get the hang of it is to listen to traditional folk songs. For example, balkan music constantly employs odd rythms. 9/8 or rather 18/16 is extremely common in greek music, but there are many variations (ways of grouping beats). 7/8, 5/8 11/8, even 15/8 are also very common.

You must also remember that this is not abstract music, it is actually dance music, only the patterns is more complex than 1-2/1-2. If you had someone to show you the steps, the odd meters would make much more sense.

So, to conclude, if you really want to dig into this stuff, get some balkan folk records. As a bonus you will hear some amazing virtuosos in various instruments such us violin and clarinet. These guys use their instruments in ways that would make the hair on the head of a classically trained virtuso stand up (or fall off). Like we say in Greece, they play in a way that they can "make a donkey explode with passion"!

No name · Post by **No name** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:09 am

I think perhaps I might pick up such CD's, as the past few months i've been in a mind frame of greatly expanding my musical tastes, and it has helped a lot! I have new path ways to walk down, and this always inspires me. I do understand the principles behind it, but I suppose, as has been said a few times in this thread, that between my conditioning in popular music of the 4/4 and my always resorting to that one measure in all my music has me stuck between a rock and a hard place here. I got it, I just need to practice this all a little more. I guess my mind wonders less about "how is it done?" than "what's the point of it all?" I suppose there is a point in all the configurations, and perhaps I have still yet to understand it. I just think, well, you got your 4/4, and you can also have your 8/8, so why go through all this trouble and complicate things? But at the same time I realize that there are other time signatures that do no fit this idea correcty, such as the unusual time signatures. It just seems to me that they are all the same, just written in different ways. I now know that this isn't entirely the case, so it is indeed necessary.

blah, I talk too much! But you guys get my drift I hope. I do understand though, but it just can seem a bit tricky to me sometimes.

Thanks a lot everyone, especially herodotus for the audio examples, they made my head spin! I think it is very interesting because that is one area that contemporary music has yet to traverse, so it is more interesting to me to know that I could dive into different time signatures to create a more distinct/original sound by adding such unexpected flavors that those time signatures offer us rhythmically.

Help on understanding time signatures.