KVR Audio

cimoc · Post by **cimoc** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:14 am

I suppose there is a point in all the configurations, and perhaps I have still yet to understand it. I just think, well, you got your 4/4, and you can also have your 8/8, so why go through all this trouble and complicate things?

Different rythms, different dances. There is more to dance than headbanging. You might not know it, but your body does.

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:23 am

NoName, why not start with experimenting something simple yet different like triplets, shuffle, swing... Divide the quarter notes in three instead of four sixteenths.

SARcasm wrote:Odd time sigs (like 5/4, 7/8 etc) end up sounding a bit rushed, and are great for addding a bit of spice to a track, but bear in mind they are not easy to dance to, so beware your genre.

Do a search on "Balkan music" (former Yugoslavia) e.g. on YouTube and you'll find loads of traditional dance music in 7/8 signature. For instance:

Voidoid Surrealist · Post by **Voidoid Surrealist** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:53 pm

BertKoor wrote:NoName, why not start with experimenting something simple yet different like triplets, shuffle, swing... Divide the quarter notes in three instead of four sixteenths.

SARcasm wrote:Odd time sigs (like 5/4, 7/8 etc) end up sounding a bit rushed, and are great for addding a bit of spice to a track, but bear in mind they are not easy to dance to, so beware your genre.
Do a search on "Balkan music" (former Yugoslavia) e.g. on YouTube and you'll find loads of traditional dance music in 7/8 signature. For instance:

An intro to Balkan metres…

Some mp3 samples…
Takijska Racenica 7/16
Celebinsko 9/8
Kopanica 11/16
Krivo Sadovsko Horo 13/16
Jove Male Mome 18/8
Sandansko Horo 22/16
Sedi Donka 25/16

jens · Post by **jens** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:31 pm

thelizard wrote:
THE NUMBER ONE RULE however is this: the time signature does not make the melody. The melody makes the time signature (i.e. don't go off thinking "Hey I really want do change this into a sudden 7/8 + 5/8 breakdown." Instead, do what's natural)

most important point in this thread yet - odd time-signature beats make sense due to the melodies they transport - often enough I've got some melodic pattern and when I try to record it I suddenly realize that it's not 4/4 and then I have to figure out what it actually is - and sometimes that's not too easy for me.

Take this example:

http://www.colourofmusic.com/mp3/CrimeAndPunishment.mp3

the theme this piece starts with alters the time signature on almost each bar - I played a bit around with a guitar and it just happened to come to me like this - when I started to record and arrange it I even though about evening it out a bit but then decided to keep it this way - but in any case the oddity came with the melody, the pattern itself (there are a few other odd sections as well but in the end it all ends up in a huge 4/4 finale).

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:01 am

I got into alternative time signatures through bands like Slint and Tool. Then gradually I started to discover more and more bands and music that utilised them.

I think the key is to just feel it. Save the writing it all down gaff to the people who over analyse music. If there is one thing that going to university has taught me it is this: the intellect is not the place for creativity to flourish.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:11 pm

another important technique is heavy syncopation; writing bars in one time signature but repeating them fractally to reflect another time signature.

mp3 example (first the piece is in 3/4, then in 4/4 but with the 3/4 phrase)

It's commonly employed by Tool, Meshuggah, and the like. It's a great way to use tricky melodies and phrases without losing the steady downbeat if your 7/8 or 9/8 or 3/4 or 5/4 melody becomes hard to follow.

Remember, too, that when working with irregular (compound and asymmetrical) meters rather than the standard duple/triple - simple/complex setups, syncopation is best forgotten because trying to understand rhythmics in an already foreign time is very difficult.

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:49 pm

just saw that computer music magazine's feature article this month Playing with Time discusses some of the more unconventional rhythmic techniques like non-4/4 meters, changing meters, polymeter, etc. might be useful ... :-)

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:51 pm

> writing bars in one time signature but repeating them fractally to reflect another time signature

sounds interesting; please elaborate.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:51 pm

rachmiel wrote:> writing bars in one time signature but repeating them fractally to reflect another time signature

sounds interesting; please elaborate.

Sounds complicated

- Look up syncopation and it'll be explained. Basically it plays with the metre so you have an accent in a normally unaccented place.

Other information on rhythm and time you might find interesting can be found at:

Metre
Hemiola
Tuplets
Swing

Although, a musical reference book might be better (if you have access to one), rather than Wiki.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:08 pm

rachMiel! Oh shit, I loved your column! Also your Reaktor Ensembles...

I think polyrhythms might be a better term for it, but I'm not sure... listen to some Meshuggah to get it fully.

They'll write a riff in 7/8 or 9/8 and then by looping portions of the bars partially rather than fully they keep an underlying theme of 4/4 or 6/8 or something. Usually it starts as chaotic and then something reinforces it like the drumbeat... or if the drums are in another time it's even more chaotic, but the vocals will reflect a 4/4 time so once the verse starts you latch on to it before you lose it again during the break.

Simple example: The guitar Riff is in 7/8. it's chaotic at first but it's cut in half for the last bar to keep it looping as if it were 4 bars of common time.

The beat then reinforces the common time by adding a 4/4 groove; the riff suddenly makes sense and isn't chaotic.

Then the beat goes to 5/4 and is repeated by cutting to one beat in the last part of the 4/4 bar, bringing back the chaos... but then the bass reinforces the 4/4 time. It shows how you can have a steady and sensible rhythm while maintaining time signature asymmetry and complexity.

It's a fairly common technique in modern metal.

MP3 example

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:18 am

> I loved your column!

thanks. :-)

> Also your Reaktor Ensembles...

again. :-)

thanks for providing an example of what you were talking about. very interesting ... i mostly avoid metal because it makes me feel physically sick (a reaction to the harshness of sound), but i have heard a bunch of meshuggah. i had no idea they were playing with rhythm like this. :-)

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:25 am

Oh yeah. Meshuggah is the most Avant Garde band that I know of that ISN'T using a computer (though their newest album features programmed drums, but they use DFH superior which was played by their drummer for the sampling so that's fair)

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:15 am

I'm sure Meshuggah have computers involved in the process somewhere, whether that be recording or FX.

Catch 33 is probably one of the best albums I know that demonstrates good use of polyrhythms. I'm usually pretty good at counting stuff, but can I count that album? Can I f**k!

Some of my favourite polyrhythmic stuff is by a band called Oceansize. Checkout their track "Charm Offensive" for some good usage.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:37 am

YES! Catch33 is awesome! That's the album that the drummer programmed his part, though, he plays the rest of the albums.

"Nothing" is such a spectacular album too. You can only count it when the vocals are there. After a few runs you get most of them... but to this day, I CANNOT figure out "Stengah".

Wicker Man · Post by **Wicker Man** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:44 am

The latest CM mag has a feature on time sigs...

Help on understanding time signatures.