How to... Harmonizing a melody? (starter level)

[Compyfox]

Okay, I caused a lot of rukus over at the Instruments section. So I set down and tried several tools to see if they suit my needs. Unfortunately nothing really works as expected (help creating chord progressions from melodies with Harmony Navigator, Band in a Box, etc), so I have to start from the beginning and hope that I can create some more interesting stuff myself with stuff like ChordSpace (Playa) and Cubase. Or if maybe somebody knows where there's a "scale/key detector" as standalone or VSTi form, I'd reall appreciate it (maybe this'd be something for Nuffink?).


In my defense:
I have no idea of music theory. Only know some stuff, but nothing really helpful. I can play a bit on the keyboard, but I can't read scores, therefore I also can't play piano or chords fluently. This means: I need something like C, F#, etc as description. Also I learned the latin descriptions, so chances are I confuse Dur/Maj and Moll/Minor with each other.

All I'm asking you is to keep it simple. Don't throw I, VI, etc at me. I just don't know what that means.


Anyway, let's get started.
In the other thread I was asked to post a melody to work on how to learn a bit more about theory. I found a... erm... fairly simple one where I once tried to create a remix from it, too (you can find it in the media section of my page). But befriended musicians were all like "dude... you hit the chords all wrong" and I lost the Cubase project too - so if I ever want to finish it, I have to rewrite it. But back on topic.

The melody is the title tune from the Gameboy videogame "SaGa", which is known in North America as "Final Fantasy Legend". For reference, I decided to give you a score sheet that I quickly threw together in Cubase SX3. I'm not that firm with it's notation functions, so I'm sorry if some stuff might look a bit akward.

Final Fantasy Legend - Title Melody (Melody Only) - 1000x923pix jpg


As you can see, I also manually added some additional info. The melody is split into two parts as I think the key of it changes in the middle. At least it sounds to me like that. I also added (in red) written notes (as in form of C, F, etc) in sharp and flat for easier spotting what's going on.


THE PROBLEM:
First of all I need to know which key this song is in. I have no idea how to do it, but from browsing random theory pages, I'd say "why not count how many sharps and flats are in the track, and then you know the key"? Also according to this page the key scale can be determinded by how many flats and sharps are in a piano part. Sounds simple, but is not that simple for me.

Okay in this score sheet, we have in the first piano part C#, F#, Bb. In the second piano part we have G#, Bb.

If I go by the first part, and the upper linked page, it'd be Dmaj. But.. we have a flat in there, and what about the second part which doesn't make sense to me at all. If I'd go by this page, I'd have tons of possibilities within the major scale alone.


QUESTION 1:
How can I get out which key the melody is in?



PROBLEM 2 (for later):
After the key is known, what next? How can I get out which chords are allowed for this specific melody? (Is there some form of X/Y chart for that? Or a very, very, very!!!! simple description for ChordSpace?). And how could I go in terms of bass/counter melody?


As you can see... even a simple melody can turn out into rocket science for me. This is the reason why I asked in the first place.

So please... if you help (and not flame to death), try to be as simple as possible and not uber-theoretical. My brain tends to shut down fairly quick if there're too many terms that I don't understand. I'd also love to get some help in my native language, but I guess I have to stick to "international mode", else the rest of KVR (which is the majority) would be closed out.

Also, please don't write a complete track for "me". I want to learn something and maybe rewrite this track "again" later.

Thanks in advance.

[BertKoor]

(Melody Only) - 1000x923pix jpg

Any chance of posting an audio / midi clip of the same thing?

How can I get out which key the melody is in?

By listening to the chords, and especially the bass notes. There should be a dominant note, the note you're naturally drawn to. Other chords may increase tension, and the base chord of the key is the one with the least tension, where it's at rest.

After that you can determine weather it's in minor or major scale, or whatever scale and that dictates the flats/sharps of the score. Not vice versa! Although that may work, but from counting these you still can't tell A minor from C major.

[Sascha Franck]

QUESTION 1:
How can I get out which key the melody is in?

The easiest way: On the most "stable" sounding parts of the melody, try to play a root note under it. In this case, to me the most stable parts would be the one or two bars ending each 8bar section.
And, again to me, things look (and sound, only fingered through it quickly) like D.

Ok, just listened to your interpretation of it. Couldn't find anything wrong or so.
The problem with it simply being that it sort of modulates between D major and minor (the F# note being an indicator for major, the Bb note being an indicator for minor), but you got that captured in your version.
IMO, you also interpreted the G# from the second part correctly - it's only a chromatic passing note, not indicating much of a modulation or so.
As said, you got the two main things perfectly right, the entire thing being in D while occasionally switching between major and minor - which is a very common technique.

Btw, is the tempo as in the original?

PROBLEM 2 (for later):
After the key is known, what next? How can I get out which chords are allowed for this specific melody? (Is there some form of X/Y chart for that? Or a very, very, very!!!! simple description for ChordSpace?). And how could I go in terms of bass/counter melody?

In this very case, this is going to become a problem.
The more or less constant modulation between major and minor isn't all that tough, but in case you don't know much about chords build up on scales, it might turn into a problem.
More on that below...

As you can see... even a simple melody can turn out into rocket science for me. This is the reason why I asked in the first place.

Even if the melody of this example *is* very simple indeed for the listener, harmonically it's getting more advanced, and it's probably not the best point to start with from a learning point of view. The constant change between major and minor being the problem here.

I already said so, you captured the switch between major and minor in your mix, but exploring things more deeply would require quite some stretches.

I could try to explain some principles of harmonic "rules" to you, such as a dominant chord being able to resolve into either a minor or major tonic chord, as it's present in both minor and major keys - but I don't think it will help in this case.

Ok, not to make too much fuzz about it for now: Do you have any other melodies that stick to a single key? Something "purely white keys" or so?
That'd make any explanations *way* easier, really.
In theory land, modulations are the toughest thing to get into, even if some of them (such as in your example) sound really easy. So it's probably not the best idea to start with them.

[nuffink]

Compy, It's written in C Major. Otherwise there would be a Key Signature. All the notes marked with a sharp or flat are "accidentals" or out of key notes.

[Sascha Franck]

Compy, It's written in C Major. Otherwise there would be a Key Signature. All the notes marked with a sharp or flat are "accidentals" or out of key notes.

Pfffffffffffffffff - splitting hair time, innit?

[nuffink]

Sorry. I just went back and re-read Compy's post. I hadn't realised that he'd written the dots.

[Sascha Franck]

Well, no worries - the problem simply being that whatever score editors default to C, so you gotta enter any other keys by yourself. Which obviously isn't as easy. Otherwise this thread probably wouldn't even exist.

[Compyfox]

First of all, here is the MIDI:

FF Legend Theme

Keep in mind, I only have the melody and I want to port my own chord progression over it. Take this as example for all other tracks I've written or want to write. If I have the melody only, I don't have any chords. So I indeed need something that analyses the track, tells me which key it is in, and maybe give me chord suggestions, or I have a X/Y chart to go that by myself.


The next thing I want to critisize is the posts. I told you "please keep it simple", and already I have 2 posts where I understand jack to be honest. I don't learn a thing if I don't understand what the people are talking about.

The easiest way: On the most "stable" sounding parts of the melody, try to play a root note under it. In this case, to me the most stable parts would be the one or two bars ending each 8bar section.

Meaning every bar (after every 4/4 beat, and sometimes in the 3rd and 4th beat some "variations"). If I understood that right. The next thing would be... what root note? o_O

And, again to me, things look (and sound, only fingered through it quickly) like D.

How do you declare that?
How to go about it?
How to do it the simplest way possible?!

This is my main question.

Ok, just listened to your interpretation of it. Couldn't find anything wrong or so.

The arrangement's major flaw are the chords. For example the transition from 1:07 to 1:11 and from 1:16 to 1:21. This was the most critisized stuff on this track, apart from being uncreative, boring and not "variating" at all. At least if I go by the "standards" of the OC Remix Judgement System. My standards are basicly that it sounds akward to me (chord progression), even though I want more "life" in the tune like arps or something like that (which is problematic due to my limitations).

As said, you got the two main things perfectly right, the entire thing being in D while occasionally switching between major and minor - which is a very common technique.

Might be, but it still sounds wrong to my ears.

Btw, is the tempo as in the original?

Sorry, no idea. Depending on the used beats I'd say. If I remember this track was somewhere around 130-140 (my interpretation) according to the programmed beats.

Even if the melody of this example *is* very simple indeed for the listener, harmonically it's getting more advanced, and it's probably not the best point to start with from a learning point of view. The constant change between major and minor being the problem here.

I already said so, you captured the switch between major and minor in your mix, but exploring things more deeply would require quite some stretches.

Why not start with the very first question? What keyscale is this melody in, and why?

I wrote this track back in the day off of a MIDI and a lot of trial and error (even the bass), so I can't reproduce what I really did there.

Ok, not to make too much fuzz about it for now: Do you have any other melodies that stick to a single key? Something "purely white keys" or so?

No, all lost in HDD crashes. What I write is stuff I usually can't reproduce. Old stuff would only bleed your ears anyway. And even if I had something "new" now (did I mention that I barely wrote anything in the last years?), it'd also use sharps and flats.

That'd make any explanations *way* easier, really.
In theory land, modulations are the toughest thing to get into, even if some of them (such as in your example) sound really easy. So it's probably not the best idea to start with them.

Maybe, but I don't have a different example. Maybe someone else does though. Prividing MIDI and Score sheet, etc.

Compy, It's written in C Major. Otherwise there would be a Key Signature. All the notes marked with a sharp or flat are "accidentals" or out of key notes.

Now I don't understand anything anymore. Accidentals?
Even more confusing is the theory page you just posted. And yeah, Cubase is a bitch in terms of notation. I'm sorry, maybe the MIDI helps a bit.


EDIT:
I can only emphasize that an "automated" key scale recognition tool would surely help a lot. Maybe not in terms of learning, but in terms of writing. (and I definitely gotta contact you about ChordSpace Playa as I have some questions about it).

[nuffink]

Compy, It's written in C Major. Otherwise there would be a Key Signature. All the notes marked with a sharp or flat are "accidentals" or out of key notes.

Now I don't understand anything anymore. Accidentals?
Even more confusing is the theory page you just posted. And yeah, Cubase is a bitch in terms of notation. I'm sorry, maybe the MIDI helps a bit.


EDIT:
I can only emphasize that an "automated" key scale recognition tool would surely help a lot. Maybe not in terms of learning, but in terms of writing. (and I definitely gotta contact you about ChordSpace Playa as I have some questions about it).

Compy, all this seems difficult to you because it is. Harmonizing a melody isn't something you start with when you're learning theory. It's something you learn to do when you're good.
The opposite, locking a melody to a harmony, is much easier. That's how most songwriters have traditionally gone about it. Pick out a chord progression and write a melody over it.

[Gustar]

Compy, all this seems difficult to you because it is. Harmonizing a melody isn't something you start with when you're learning theory. It's something you learn to do when you're good.
The opposite, locking a melody to a harmony, is much easier. That's how most songwriters have traditionally gone about it. Pick out a chord progression and write a melody over it.

+1 to that.

[Compyfox]

Well having a chord progression, or better said "creating" one is fairly simple, as there're no bounds. From there it's a bit hard to get out what "scale" it's in, but if I have a progression, the melody comes with the flow.

Hm... looks like my problem is bigger than imagined, and nothing that's really helping unless I studied theory for a couple of years. At least that's my impression.

Well, at least I tried. Back to trial and error.

[Gustar]

Well having a chord progression, or better said "creating" one is fairly simple, as there're no bounds. From there it's a bit hard to get out what "scale" it's in, but if I have a progression, the melody comes with the flow.

Hm... looks like my problem is bigger than imagined, and nothing that's really helping unless I studied theory for a couple of years. At least that's my impression.

Well, at least I tried. Back to trial and error.

That's not true. There are very tight bounds for a chord progression.

1. Choose your key.
2. That gives you the chords you can use.
3. The chords point you to the notes you can use for your melody.

[nuffink]

Well having a chord progression, or better said "creating" one is fairly simple, as there're no bounds.

It's even simpler because there are bounds. Some chord progressions are known to work so hundreds of thousands of tunes have been written on them. Here's a start. If you're worried about the roman numerals don't be. They match up with the roman numerals in Playa.

From there it's a bit hard to get out what "scale" it's in, but if I have a progression, the melody comes with the flow.

No, it's easy. The scale is determined by the chord. The chord is determined by the Key. Here's an exhaustive list of what scales you can play over what chord. Playa is a an exhaustive list of what chords work in a given Key.

Edit: oops crossed with Gustar, who's given the same advice.

[bleebsen]

Maybe that's a place to start: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonart

[Compyfox]

*head-a-splode*
Oooooh-kay. I'll try to dig myself through it.

But Nuffink, Playa first needs to be setup at a scale, true that. By that the pitch of the "melody" section is adjusted (what I think is a bit confusing if you're used to that the piano/keyboard is NOT pitched).

So far so good, but what always bugged me with Playa was the thing with the "chords". For example: C1 can be Cmaj, C# can be Csus4, while D can be Dmaj7 and D# be Dmin. The problem hereby is: first it's bound to the octave, and second: I can only use "these chords" on "these particular" piano keys.

Unless I got the concept wrong, same with Chordspace alone (never understood how to automate it).


Er... did I mention that my head just exploded and my brain shut down?