Help on understanding time signatures.

[Sascha Franck]

Ok, it's in 7/4. No problems with that.

[jimrogenski]

Speaking of Dave Brubeck...Try listening to Blue Rondo ala Turk. Great example of what you can do with odd time signatures. This example shows that it's all about where the accent is placed.

[Amberience]

See, now we're getting into academic discourse and less creative discourse. It doesn't matter if you interpret Money to be 7/8 7/4 or 4/4 + 3/4

That sort of technical analysing isn't interesting to me in the slightest, just feel the music.

As for the Western world not having an odd-timing culture ... I disagree. We've had odd timings since forever. Just because it's not the mainstream doesn't make it any less of a culture.

[Sascha Franck]

As for the Western world not having an odd-timing culture ... I disagree. We've had odd timings since forever. Just because it's not the mainstream doesn't make it any less of a culture.

Well, sure. But you don't "adjust" to things in a natural way, I think. It's simply that what we grow up with is mostly 4/4.

[Amberience]

As for the Western world not having an odd-timing culture ... I disagree. We've had odd timings since forever. Just because it's not the mainstream doesn't make it any less of a culture.

Well, sure. But you don't "adjust" to things in a natural way, I think. It's simply that what we grow up with is mostly 4/4.

Well what would be a natural way of adjusting to it?

I mean... I grew up listening to music mostly in 4/4 then I discovered Tool and started learning more about odd timings. What's more natural than the processing of learning?

[Sascha Franck]

Well what would be a natural way of adjusting to it?

I mean... I grew up listening to music mostly in 4/4 then I discovered Tool and started learning more about odd timings. What's more natural than the processing of learning?

The "natural" way would be being exposed to that sort of music a lot on whatever occasions. Be it family (or other) meetings with someone grabbing an instrument and everybody singing along, be it the radio, be it whatever events.
This is just not common in our western countries.

[.jon]

Sidetracking a bit, maybe "other cultures" aren't even using the concept of time signatures? You know, just like... play, groove and stuff? Without counting and worrying? I really don't know, but isn't the whole stave thing very western?

[herodotus]

As for the Western world not having an odd-timing culture ... I disagree. We've had odd timings since forever. Just because it's not the mainstream doesn't make it any less of a culture.

Well, sure. But you don't "adjust" to things in a natural way, I think. It's simply that what we grow up with is mostly 4/4.

You see? That's what you get for hating Rush!



Seriously, I was playing in fives and sevens when I was 12 years old, because among my earliest influences were Billy Cobham, Bill Bruford, and Neil Peart. I didn't know that the odd patterns were 'odd', I just thought they were 'cool'

Additionally, one should note that while metrical patterns in fives and sevens might not be as common as metrical patterns in 4, metrical patterns in threes (and sixes and nines) are quite common in folk music from Cuba to Ireland.

And as Voidoid Surrealist has already intimated, Balkan folk music has had all sorts of odd meters since time immemorial.

A thing to remember is that the term 'time signature' properly applies only to the written numbers on a piece of sheet music or tab. The difference between 5/8 and 5/4 is one of convenience for the writer of sheet music. As far as listening is concerned, there is no real difference between 5/4 and 5/8 or 11/4 and 11/8.

The more accurate term to use is 'meter', as this refers to the music (or rather, to its underlying counting pattern) rather than to a graphic representation.

Finally, if you want the established primers for the use of odd meters in modern music, you should buy recordings of Stravinsky's 'Rite of Spring' (Le Sacre du Printemps for the pedants) and Bartok's 'Miraculous Mandarin' and listen to them frequently. Fusion and Prog rock are childs play by comparison.

[zeoy]

Hope you enjoyed your stay in Greece Sascha! Indeed the most common odd time sigs here are 9/8 and 7/8. 9/8 is the sig used in "zembekiko" (originated in Minor Asia) and 7/8 is used in "kalamatiano" (from the Peloponnese city Kalamata). They both feel very natural to most Greeks and people dance to them very easily.

To the original poster :
www.artmaster.gr/zeoy/zeoy_AteDarkness9.mp3 although a mostly dark drone-ish thing is practically a zembekiko (seek for the drumbeat after the initial drones)

www.artmaster.gr/zeoy/melloddity.mp3 is in 5/4 (or 10/8 if you prefer) and mellotronaut who did the vocals never complained

[Sascha Franck]

Hope you enjoyed your stay in Greece Sascha!

Most defenitely! I love it down there. I still wish I had the time to learn some greek.
Maybe one day you can teach me some

and 7/8 is used in "kalamatiano" (from the Peloponnese city Kalamata).

Didn't know that. All I know is olives from Kalamata. Probably as tasty as 7/8s

[egbert]

Great post, Sascha, but:

... Pink Floyds "Money" (which is in 7/8 )...

That's not correct. Money is in 7/4 signature

Yes. In the riff the second beat is a pair of quavers (8ths) and all the rest of the notes are full beats. The quavers in the backing and the vocals are not straight 8ths but swing 8ths - as in the vocal line "do goo-dy good" and "hi fi del-ity" etc.

[rachmiel]

other masters: zappa (of course!) and the father of metrically (and harmonically) interesting east/west hybrid rock: mahavishnu mclaughlin. :-)

[zeoy]

Didn't know that. All I know is olives from Kalamata. Probably as tasty as 7/8s

Known also for some ... other equally tasty earth products but let's skip this for now

[JumpingJackFlash]

The difference between 5/8 and 5/4 is one of convenience for the writer of sheet music. As far as listening is concerned, there is no real difference between 5/4 and 5/8 or 11/4 and 11/8.

Well, there is a difference between 'simple' time signatures like 5/4, and 'compound' time-signatures like 5/8.

Simple time signatures are based on groups of 2 notes. Usually the beat is a crotchet (2 quavers), so in 6/4 for example, you count:
1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and-5-and-6-and
(6 crotchets in the bar, the 'and's represent the quaver off-beats).

Compound time signatures on the other hand are based on groups of 3 notes, so the beat is actually a dotted-crotchet (3 quavers). So, in 6/8, you count:
1-2-3, 4-5-6. (count every quaver)

Notice the difference? (It's much easier to explain on manuscript paper).
In certain music the difference will be more audible than others of course.

Because 6/8 is better thought of as 2 dotted-crotchet beats in a bar, it is actually more similar to 2/4 than 6/4.

[Amberience]

I think it is easier to describe on manuscript paper because it is more a graphical difference than an aural difference.