Help on understanding time signatures.

[maxhodges1]

I heard that a lot of the Venetian Snares stuff is in 7/8, but I'm having a hard time setting up 7/8 in GURU (my sampling sequencer drum-machine). so in 4/4 we have 16 steps divided into 4 beats (steps 1, 5, 9, 13) in dance, but of course in break your kick may land on 11 intead of 9)
K---S-----K-S---

But in 7/8 I get very confused. 4/4 is 4 quarter notes per measure. so 7/8 is 7 eighth notes right (?)
7/8 is a simplier way of thinking about 4/8 + 4/8 measures right?
So I can either make 7 pulses per measure, or divide it into groups (by accent), as:
-ONE two three ONE two three four
or
-ONE two three four ONE two three

so in GURU I could take two measures worth of steps (32 steps) and trim it down to 1 full measure (4 beats) + 3/4 of a measure (3 beats) (i.e. 28 steps).

Also, seems I've actually laid it out as 7/4 (maybe I could use 14 steps instead of 28), but I can always just double the tempo because 28 steps give me more resolution (for micro-level drills, etc).

but what the hell kind of (break) beats can I make with this? I'd tried laying out a bunch of different patterns, but it all sounds just sounds bad/unnatural. I don't get it

[herodotus]

The difference between 5/8 and 5/4 is one of convenience for the writer of sheet music. As far as listening is concerned, there is no real difference between 5/4 and 5/8 or 11/4 and 11/8.

Well, there is a difference between 'simple' time signatures like 5/4, and 'compound' time-signatures like 5/8.

Simple time signatures are based on groups of 2 notes. Usually the beat is a crotchet (2 quavers), so in 6/4 for example, you count:
1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and-5-and-6-and
(6 crotchets in the bar, the 'and's represent the quaver off-beats).

Compound time signatures on the other hand are based on groups of 3 notes, so the beat is actually a dotted-crotchet (3 quavers). So, in 6/8, you count:
1-2-3, 4-5-6. (count every quaver)

Notice the difference? (It's much easier to explain on manuscript paper).
In certain music the difference will be more audible than others of course.

Because 6/8 is better thought of as 2 dotted-crotchet beats in a bar, it is actually more similar to 2/4 than 6/4.

I'm sorry but 'simple' and 'compound' time are vestiges of a simpler age.

There are all sorts of examples of music written in e.g. 9/8 but which consists metrically of 2+2+2+3 rather than 3+3+3. This is because time signatures were designed for western european music, but are applicable to any measured music. In any case, 5/8 isn't a compound meter, because it isn't evenly divisible.

But aside from all that, if you give a drummer (or a sequencer) this to play:


and then this:


you will find that they sound identical.

[duncanparsons]

..in sounding identical, the tempo in the second case will be half that of the first

DSP

[cron]

I heard that a lot of the Venetian Snares stuff is in 7/8, but I'm having a hard time setting up 7/8 in GURU (my sampling sequencer drum-machine). so in 4/4 we have 16 steps divided into 4 beats (steps 1, 5, 9, 13) in dance, but of course in break your kick may land on 11 intead of 9)
K---S-----K-S---

But in 7/8 I get very confused. 4/4 is 4 quarter notes per measure. so 7/8 is 7 eighth notes right (?)
7/8 is a simplier way of thinking about 4/8 + 4/8 measures right?
So I can either make 7 pulses per measure, or divide it into groups (by accent), as:
-ONE two three ONE two three four
or
-ONE two three four ONE two three

so in GURU I could take two measures worth of steps (32 steps) and trim it down to 1 full measure (4 beats) + 3/4 of a measure (3 beats) (i.e. 28 steps).

Also, seems I've actually laid it out as 7/4 (maybe I could use 14 steps instead of 28), but I can always just double the tempo because 28 steps give me more resolution (for micro-level drills, etc).

but what the hell kind of (break) beats can I make with this? I'd tried laying out a bunch of different patterns, but it all sounds just sounds bad/unnatural. I don't get it

Can't really answer the body of your question here, but thought I should mention that the majority of Venetian Snares' stuff is in fact in 7/4 as there are 7 COMPLETE beats per bar. 7/8 would mean 3 and a half beats per bar. I had a bit of a rant about this common misconception on the Venetian Snares discussion page at Wikipedia after someone listed the time signatures of many of his tracks, getting every single one wrong in the process.

[Toxikator]

I'm sorry but 'simple' and 'compound' time are vestiges of a simpler age.

There are all sorts of examples of music written in e.g. 9/8 but which consists metrically of 2+2+2+3 rather than 3+3+3. This is because time signatures were designed for western european music, but are applicable to any measured music. In any case, 5/8 isn't a compound meter, because it isn't evenly divisible.

Actually, I disagree. For all practical intents and purposes the number of notes per bar in 6/8 is identical to 3/4. The same melody could be achieved in either signature. The signatures are there as aural guides for how the melody is felt; there is a distinct difference between how 6/8 and 3/4 sound, and there is a distinct difference between how 5/4 and 5/8 sound.

The "2+2+2+3" you're describing is the use of polyrthythms. You can (and it is often done) compose a 4/4 piece out of "3+3+2" 8th notes...

EDIT: Okay, nvm.

Some research revealed that there is simple/compound and duple/triple, with the term "asymmetrical" reserved for anything other than duple/triple, "irregular" for anything other than simple/compound, and the term "additive" for anything which has a polyrhythmic stress pattern (3+2+3/8)

[maxhodges1]

I heard that a lot of the Venetian Snares stuff is in 7/8, but I'm having a hard time setting up 7/8 in GURU (my sampling sequencer drum-machine). so in 4/4 we have 16 steps divided into 4 beats (steps 1, 5, 9, 13) in dance, but of course in break your kick may land on 11 intead of 9)
K---S-----K-S---

But in 7/8 I get very confused. 4/4 is 4 quarter notes per measure. so 7/8 is 7 eighth notes right (?)
7/8 is a simplier way of thinking about 4/8 + 4/8 measures right?
So I can either make 7 pulses per measure, or divide it into groups (by accent), as:
-ONE two three ONE two three four
or
-ONE two three four ONE two three

so in GURU I could take two measures worth of steps (32 steps) and trim it down to 1 full measure (4 beats) + 3/4 of a measure (3 beats) (i.e. 28 steps).

Also, seems I've actually laid it out as 7/4 (maybe I could use 14 steps instead of 28), but I can always just double the tempo because 28 steps give me more resolution (for micro-level drills, etc).

but what the hell kind of (break) beats can I make with this? I'd tried laying out a bunch of different patterns, but it all sounds just sounds bad/unnatural. I don't get it

Can't really answer the body of your question here, but thought I should mention that the majority of Venetian Snares' stuff is in fact in 7/4 as there are 7 COMPLETE beats per bar. 7/8 would mean 3 and a half beats per bar. I had a bit of a rant about this common misconception on the Venetian Snares discussion page at Wikipedia after someone listed the time signatures of many of his tracks, getting every single one wrong in the process.

You wrote:

7/8 would mean 3 and a half beats per bar.

I believe you are incorrect.

7/x means there are seven beats per measure
x/8 means the eighth note gets the beat
x/4 means the quarter note gets the beat

7/8 means there are 7 beats per measure (top number) and the eighth note (bottom number) gets one beat.
7/4 means there are 7 beats per measure (top number) and the quarter note (bottom number) gets one beat.

Meter Basics:
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary ... asics.html

AFAIK three-and-a-half beats per bar doesn't exist in Western music.

[Toxikator]

you're slightly mistaken. what "gets the beat" (the pulse) is only determined by the lower number of the time signature for SIMPLE meter.

For compound meters, this is not true. Consider 6/8 time; it has the same PULSE as 2/4 time. The difference is that in 2/4 time each quarter note is divided into two 8th notes, while in 6/8 it's divided into three.

7/8 would be sounded (most likely) as either "3+3+1/8" (a 6/8 8th notes pattern with an extra 8th) or as "4+3/8" (a 4/4 pattern with a single 8th note dropped).

In other words, 3.5 quarter notes per bar. You feel the pulse three times and then a half-pulse, like 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-1-and-2-and-3-and-4.

[herodotus]

I'm sorry but 'simple' and 'compound' time are vestiges of a simpler age.

There are all sorts of examples of music written in e.g. 9/8 but which consists metrically of 2+2+2+3 rather than 3+3+3. This is because time signatures were designed for western european music, but are applicable to any measured music. In any case, 5/8 isn't a compound meter, because it isn't evenly divisible.

Actually, I disagree. For all practical intents and purposes the number of notes per bar in 6/8 is identical to 3/4.

Yes I know. I agree completely. But the rather quaint term 'compound time' does mean (according to the Oxford dictionary of music) that "Each beat in a measure consists of a dotted crochet or its equivalent"

The same melody could be achieved in either signature. The signatures are there as aural guides for how the melody is felt; there is a distinct difference between how 6/8 and 3/4 sound, and there is a distinct difference between how 5/4 and 5/8 sound.

Perhaps, but it is hardly the sort of thing that could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

In any case, I challenge you to get more specific about this 'distinct difference' between how 5/8 sounds as opposed to 5/4.

I promise you that your sequencer could never tell the difference between the two.

The "2+2+2+3" you're describing is the use of polyrthythms. You can (and it is often done) compose a 4/4 piece out of "3+3+2" 8th notes...

No. A polyrhythm refers to a particular relationship between two or more distinct musical parts. What I was talking about was an accent pattern. Specifically one that is common to Bulgarian folk music. Occasionally, this music would be written in score as 2+2+2+3/8. But often, it was written 9/8.

It sounds the same either way.

..in sounding identical, the tempo in the second case will be half that of the first

DSP

Well I was thinking of the first with a tempo of quarter note=120 with the second with a tempo of eighth note=120.

And in that case, they would sound identical.

[Amberience]

Bloody hell.. can't we just PLAY in odd meters rather than analyse odd meters!

[Lord Snarebottom]

In any case, I challenge you to get more specific about this 'distinct difference' between how 5/8 sounds as opposed to 5/4.

I promise you that your sequencer could never tell the difference between the two.

Challenge:

1) enter 5/4 as the time signature into your host. Turn click on. Press play.
2) enter 5/8 as your time signature. Press play. DO NOT CHANGE THE TEMPO.

Your sequencer may not know the difference between 5/8 and 5/4 (then again, almost any fool knows that a sequencer don't know sh1t from shineola *note: I really have no idea what shineola is, either, but apparently Google does ), but you should (if you're going to blather) and they are NOT the same.

Given the same tempo, they are vastly different, albeit with a very simple relativity.

[Voidoid Surrealist]

Dunav re-did part of their site, so some of my prior links are fuxxored.

For mp3s of balkan folk music (a lot of which is in odd metres) go here and click on a country…
Check out that crazy Sedi Donka beat (25/16, 322+322+2232) under the Bulgarian section

[No name]

I feel that, once again in my journey doing music, everytime I think i've found depth, i've barely scratched the surface! There really is a whole expanse that I didn't realize could give me both so much more to work with, as well as "laws" that would make composing a bit less chaotic, which is better for me. This has become a very insightful thread, I had no clue anyone else had even posted on it within the past few days. Thank you all so very much for your help!

@Sascha Franck
If I understand whatyou are saying, then I do agree with you fully on a point you've made. I think that the fact that i'm so used to hearing the 2nd and 4th beat being accented. along with always hearing 4/4 that any time I hear something in a different time, I automatically try to feel that 4/4 groove, moving my head in accordance with the 2nd and 4th beats that were usually accented, and it just throws me because i'm not used to anything else.

I admit though, as many time as I hear the word, I can't fully comprehend what "downbeats" are. I'm not totally sure, but as an example, in a drum line where you have your 1 and 3 beats being a drum, and 2 and 4 being a snare, the 1 and 2 would be the downbeat, correct? I'm supposing downbeats are the beats which, as reasoning would have me believe, are not accented?

I'm also still getting my head around the various terms...triplets, quavers,etc. But this is my own fault seeing as how I haven't been studying it lately (reading some philosophy!)

I need to learn all this before I can really try to explain myself in some sensible manner! You've all lost me after page 2. I have no clue what some of you are talking about, but I haveto figure out because it just looks interesting!

[maxhodges1]

does anyone know a music professor that we can ask to come and shed some light on this topic? I think half of what people write here is bullshit. problem is I don't know which half!

[maxhodges1]

you're slightly mistaken. what "gets the beat" (the pulse) is only determined by the lower number of the time signature for SIMPLE meter.

For compound meters, this is not true. Consider 6/8 time; it has the same PULSE as 2/4 time. The difference is that in 2/4 time each quarter note is divided into two 8th notes, while in 6/8 it's divided into three.

7/8 would be sounded (most likely) as either "3+3+1/8" (a 6/8 8th notes pattern with an extra 8th) or as "4+3/8" (a 4/4 pattern with a single 8th note dropped).

In other words, 3.5 quarter notes per bar. You feel the pulse three times and then a half-pulse, like 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-1-and-2-and-3-and-4.

I think you are mistaken.

Simple/compound meter: There are two common types of metrical beat division, "simple" and "compound." In simple time, the prevailing beat is divided by two. For example, 4/4 time has four quarter note beats per measure, each beat divisible by two eighth notes, etc.

In compound time, the beat is divided by three. In 6/8 time, the prevailing beat is the dotted quarter note (not the eighth note as the time signature might suggest). The dotted quarter note divides into three eighth notes.

Asymmetrical meters like 7/8 or 5/4 are typically simple meters. There are five quarter notes in a measure, but each quarter note divides into two eighth notes, therefore it is simple time.

Compound meters have multiples of three as the upper number in the time signature (6/4, 9/16, 12/8, etc.). Time signatures with three as an upper number are simple meters since the basic beat is divisible by two.

[duncanparsons]

Bloody hell.. can't we just PLAY in odd meters rather than analyse odd meters!

Yip - play away However, when you find yourself not just playing a melody, but having to improvise, or move seamlessly between different meters and feels, it reaaly does help to have some understanding of what is going on - that way you are less likely to get lost

wrt to the sompound meter thing - tbh it is neither a life or death situation, nor an irrelevancy... To say 6/8 does traditionally mean a tripleted version of 2/4, whilst a 6/4 beat is 4/4 with two extra crotchets is perfectly true. However, the piece you are writing may demand the inclusion of a bar of 6 straight quavers to support the melody; in which case it wold be legitimate to use it in a non-tripleted manner.

Consider Bavarian 'um-pah' music: much of it is in 3/8 and it has that certain feel; but when 3/8 is used in the overture of 'Caberet' it has a totally different feel - same apparently compound meter, very different feel/ interpretation.

Take 9/8 - the meter of Irish 'Slip-jigs', danced as tripletted 3/4; yet when Genesis include 'Apocalypse in 9/8' in their Suppers Ready track, they are still correctly using 9 quavers in a non-tripletted fashion: were it in 9/4 the feel would be quite different.

My favourite musical introduction: 'This song was written in 1964, but we're going to play it in 12/8...'

DSP