Help on understanding time signatures.

[nuffink]

Well, since you're happy with conducting both sides of the argument, I won't interrupt.

[jens]

Well, since you're happy with conducting both sides of the argument, I won't interrupt.

yes, I am indeed as both sides each share just about the same amount of truth and bedazzlement. Yin & Yang actually - one couldn't do without the other.

[Amberience]

I'd like to see you record five guitar tracks and record a drumkit via a command line.

Dunno. Which hosts are commandline driven?

Victor.

PS you didnt' address my "speed" comment. Is tab clear enough that you can hand out parts and people play them more or less at performance level? Standard musicial notation, for all its imperfections, works remarkably well as a communication medium.

For me it is, and for a lot of other musicians it is.

If tab wasn't clear enough that people could play songs from them more or less at performance level, why is it so popular?

When I was in college the main form of learning songs was by our ears and by using tabs to reinforce what we heard. We also had theory lessons to back our ears up too.

It is a melting pot then. Which is why I don't prescribe to the theory that theory is all encompassing and on its own can make you a better musician. Poppy cock.

[emdot_ambient]

An'-a-one
An'-a-two
An'-a-three!

[No name]

I think i'm making some sense of this. For some reason I had it in my mind that a meter was an end of itself, and not dependant on how many beats there are. It's so simple to see too. I don't know why I overlooked this. I had it in my mind that a meter was "set" or "concrete". I didn't realize that how many beats there are in a meter MAKETHE METER. I hope this is making sense! It is either totally wrong and i'm missing something, or it is so damn obvious that I have no clue how I didn't understand this.

[No name]

Oh, and can someone for the love of God explain triplets to me? How could you possible fit three of the same types of notes where there are supposed to be two? This makes no sense to me because, as far as I can tell, for instance, you would have three quarter notes, and these notes have to go the duration of a quarter note! So how in the hell could you fit a quarter note in between two other quarter notes and still expect the first quarter note to last its whole duration? Sheesh!:lol:

I understandthe viewpoint that you should really just try and feel these things than analyze them, but you see, i'm trying to learn this because i'd like to beable to write my music too and "archive it" or be able to better communicate with other musicians, plus it just helps me out better for some reason.

[VicDiesel]

Oh, and can someone for the love of God explain triplets to me? How could you possible fit three of the same types of notes where there are supposed to be two?

They are only notated as the same type. They're really shorter. So you take a duration, say 60bpm, meaning one second per quarter note. Suppose you normally divide each beat (or quarter note) in two, then you have two eighth notes.

If you now change the feel of the music by playing three equal notes per second (think that slide blues lick "ya-da-da ya-da-da"), then that's a triplet. Which is confusingly written as three eights notes (with a 3 over them), but it's really a new kind of length, namely 1/3 of a beat.

Victor.

[jens]

Oh, and can someone for the love of God explain triplets to me? How could you possible fit three of the same types of notes where there are supposed to be two? This makes no sense to me because, as far as I can tell, for instance, you would have three quarter notes, and these notes have to go the duration of a quarter note! So how in the hell could you fit a quarter note in between two other quarter notes and still expect the first quarter note to last its whole duration? Sheesh!:lol:

tripplet are a bit like a mini-waltz within a bar which can have any time-signature - and there are different types of tripplets -e.g. quarter tripplets means there are three notes of the same lenght together having the same length as one quarter note - you can count them 'one and the two and the three and the four' - a good example is the intro of Deep Purples 'Black Knight' - it then also continues with tripplets as it's a boogie and boogie is using tripplets - swing as well and also blues - the typical standard blues rhythm uses quarter tripplets where each second tripplet is muted.

[No name]

His point is that you're arguing backwards.

Just because knowing theory makes you a better musician does not mean that being a good musician means you must know theory.

Musicians who are great without much theory knowledge would be absolutely STUNNING with it. The point is that knowing more about music makes you a better musician.

That was a terrible explanation, I'll try another way:

Let's say two things are true -
1)Knowing theory makes you a better guitarist
2)Eric Clapton is a good guitarist

It is wrong to say "Therefore, Eric Clapton knows theory".

Theory>Good, Clapton>Good cannot be chained together to make Clapton>Theory

That was the point of the teeth analogy; Dogs>Teeth, Cats>Teeth, therefore Cats>Dogs?
Of course not.

Logic works linearly; that is, If you say
1)Knowing theory makes you a better guitarist
2)Clapton knows theory

then you can say Theory>Good, Clapton>Theory, therefore Clapton>Theory>Good, therefore Clapton>Good.

This thread is slowly turning into a socratic argument. Joking.

[No name]

Ok, I think i'm understanding, and I sorta hear it in my head. It can just be so counter intuitive some times, and I see why you folks yell for some sort of overhaul for our current system of notation. I'm supposing that all triplets do are divide the notes question into even smaller notes, but these notes still have to fit within what the original notes duration were? I think this is roughly what it means at least. Wow, I need to read more tonight! It confuses me, but the more it does the more interested I become. I've bought a bookabout a week ago, and i'm still reading through it.

[VicDiesel]

I'm supposing that all triplets do are divide the notes question into even smaller notes, but these notes still have to fit within what the original notes duration were?

Right. Imagine your the band leader and you're about to count down a slow blues. You can count "one...two...three...four" or, at the same speed "one and-ah two and-ah three and-ah four and-ah". In the second case you've explicitly counted out the triplets that are common in blues (or swing, shuffle, as jens remarked).

Victor.

[No name]

ahhh yes, I see now. Thanks a bunch! Wow, it's odd because I use shuffle a lot in doing hip hop, as you know swing is a big thing on drum lines.

[JumpingJackFlash]

I see why you folks yell for some sort of overhaul for our current system of notation.

Yeah, and while we're at it, let's overhaul the English language. - I mean, it's ridiculous now isn't it? - Nothing is spelt as it's written, we have words that sound the same but are spelt differently...

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I genuinely believe the system we have of notating music is pretty great as it is. Think about it; with just one tadpole-like glyph we can indicate the pitch and the duration of a note. Add just a couple of extra little symbols and we can indicate how loud to play it, as well as the articulation (whether to play it detached or legato) - and a whole lot more, and all that occupies just a small bit of space of a page.

It's not perfect, but no language is. Like it or not, musical notation has been used for centuries, and is understood throughout much of the world. Yes, it will continue to evolve as time goes by, but I don't believe there is a better alternative to trade it for (and such an alternative would never be widely accepted). Once you take the time to learn the basics, it really is very easy (much easier than English in fact!).

[No name]

It works wonder if you know it, but understanding it is a totally different story. I have a reason for saying what i've said. When I began, I had no understanding of any theory at all, and yet, like has been said, using something like a piano roll was INSTANTLY obvious to me. I literally made a full song the first time I used Fruity loops, yes, back when it was still fruity loops. At the same time, I can understand your perspective, as since i've begun to understand things like scales and such, it has helped mea GREAT deal. What used to be my fingers wandering over a bunch of keys, trying to make sense of it all is now me understanding that there is a system, and there is structure which has helped me a great deal. I was playing some moonlight sonata which I could never figure out at all, and then once I read a little into scales, it all made sense to me. Which inspires the hell out of me.

I do wish it was a little more intuitive still, this system is just so confusing. I'd say even the english language could use revision, what couldn't though? There are unnecessary obstacles in any system, whether it be the english language or the system of music notation. This is what I meant by my post, as you seem to agree with me in your last paragraph as well.

I just came from a different beginning point, a point that makes it 5 times more difficult to understand this system because not only do I have to learn this theory, but I have to unlearn all the small systems I taught myself in how to deal with making music. I'm instantaneously learning and un-learning.

[nuffink]

I'm supposing that all triplets do are divide the notes question into even smaller notes, but these notes still have to fit within what the original notes duration were?

Right. Imagine your the band leader and you're about to count down a slow blues. You can count "one...two...three...four" or, at the same speed "one and-ah two and-ah three and-ah four and-ah". In the second case you've explicitly counted out the triplets that are common in blues (or swing, shuffle, as jens remarked).

Victor.

There's a classic example of the problems with notation. With respect Vic, swing isn't triplets. There's no satisfactory way of notating swing. You can write "with swing" over a score but that doesn't say how much swing. Again, shuffle is different from swing and there's no way of notating it either.